# Straight married men: did you ask your wife's father for her hand in marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478 "2014-11-12T21:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/141 "2014-11-14T15:26:58Z")
Ask? No. Tell him what was up right before I proposed? Yes. It was basically an “I think you should be the first to know” type of conversation. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/142 "2014-11-14T15:46:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And you are thus calling his wife a sexist for desiring that tradition. You are insulting not only him but his loved one. Women can be sexist too. I hope that’s not a shock to you. Consider putting your head between your knees if it is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/143 "2014-11-14T16:12:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Women can be sexist too. I hope that’s not a shock to you. Consider putting your head between your knees if it is. I guess he has a choice then between (1) offending his “sexist” wife; and (2) offending you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/144 "2014-11-14T17:08:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I guess he has a choice then between (1) offending his “sexist” wife; and (2) offending you. 😉 Yep, we all have such choices to make. Family traditions are not immune from being sexist, or racist, or homophobic, or anything. Family members are also not immune. As for your commentary that there is no harm in these sorts of “traditional” gestures, I strongly disagree. There is harm in perpetuating the idea that men are and should be in a position to negate women’s desires, that daughters, but not sons, need to ask permission to get married, that paternalism and chauvinism are cute, that showing respect to a woman’s father is desirable but showing respect to her mother is immaterial and, apparently from this thread, that family traditions can’t be sexist, or if they are they shouldn’t be called sexist because that’s mean. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/145 "2014-11-14T17:13:49Z")
For the record, I’m against pretty much anything that is done because “tradition.” As stated above, it wasn’t my idea, nor would I have done it if left up to me. I would hazard a guess that there is harm in almost all “traditions”, or else they wouldn’t be “traditions” they would just be “the way stuff is done” That being said, if i would have had to ask my future mother-in-law instead, I would have. Is asking the mother of the bride-to-be sexist as well? or some other -ist? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/146 "2014-11-14T17:24:28Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ask? No. Tell him what was up right before I proposed? Yes. It was basically an “I think you should be the first to know” type of conversation. See, this is the part I don’t really get. As far as I’m concerned the first person to know should be my partner, not her dad, not her mom. I think my wife would have been disappointed if she called her parents to tell them the good news and they already knew. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/147 "2014-11-14T17:43:56Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > No he didn’t. And if he had’ve I would’ve been annoyed and seriously had second thoughts about marrying him. The only person’s permission he needed was mine, the only person who was free to give my hand is me, same for him. It’s not like it was some mystery guessing game either - anyone who knows me would know that I’d have problems with that. Same here. My parents would have laughed themselves silly at the idea that he needed anyone’s say-so but mine. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/148 "2014-11-14T17:46:22Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > Same here. My parents would have laughed themselves silly at the idea that he needed anyone’s say-so but mine. I’m actually amused to imagine my father’s reaction. He’d put down his pipe, look at the man, and say, in his deep, slow voice: “Well… have you MET my daughter?” ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/149 "2014-11-14T18:12:50Z")
18 years ago my husband and dad had a “chat” about my husband asking to marry me. I already knew that he wanted to propose but hadn’t worked up the nerve to do it yet. I am an only child and my parents are fantastic, loving parents. I was also seriously ill at the time. My mum chose to leave the conversation as she wanted to talk to me about it. As far as I know, the “chat” was along the lines of " do you know what you’re taking on? can you deal with what she needs? When you take over as next-of-kin, will you do a good job? My dad needed to know that I would be in safe hands, my mum already trusted my husband. I love both of these men, they were not being sexist, they were discussing a big deal. If I was healthy, I think they would have probably had a similar chat over a longer time, during the engagement period. My dad loves my husband, a lot of that is due to the fact that he realised that my parents needed reassurance that he cared for their baby as much as they did. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/150 "2014-11-14T18:18:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yep, we all have such choices to make. Family traditions are not immune from being sexist, or racist, or homophobic, or anything. Family members are also not immune. No one is saying they are. Point here is that the “sexism” inherent in making a traditional gesture of respect in this case is pretty well harmless - from what I hear from actual people in this thread. It is not the case that they are actually waiting with bated breath for permission from daddy. So taking offence, on behalf of other people whose traditions you do not share, is not constructive. > [@](#): > > As for your commentary that there is no harm in these sorts of “traditional” gestures, I strongly disagree. There is harm in perpetuating the idea that men are and should be in a position to negate women’s desires, that daughters, but not sons, need to ask permission to get married, that paternalism and chauvinism are cute, that showing respect to a woman’s father is desirable but showing respect to her mother is immaterial and, apparently from this thread, that family traditions can’t be sexist, or if they are they shouldn’t be called sexist because that’s mean. I would agree if that was what was happening, However, it would appear from the responses in this thread, all of your characterizations are dead wrong. 1. No-one is saying men should be in a position to negate women’s desires. Every single person, without exception, has said that they would have married regardless. No-one is actually willing to not be married if dad says “no”. In fact, they generally know the answer already. 2. Sons need permission as much as daughters - who do you think is doing the asking? Sons from one family are asking to marry daughters from another. 3. “paternalism and chauvinism are cute”? WTF? 4. “that showing respect to a woman’s father is desirable but showing respect to her mother is immaterial” - does not follow. Asking the dad does not mean that mom’s opinion is “immaterial”. 5. “that family traditions can’t be sexist, or if they are they shouldn’t be called sexist because that’s mean” - nope, call it “sexist” all you want. Point is that it is harmless, a completely minor form of “sexism”, which - of course - one should feel free not to follow oneself (in point of fact, I did not), but has exactly no bearing on the ‘evils’ of those following it. If some fellow wants to please his future wife by following this “sexist” family ritual, more power to him - it is just as “sexist” as (a) the man asking the woman to marry him, rather than the other way around (in our case, it was a mutial decision), and/or (b) the man giving te woman an engagement ring, rather than the other way around (in our case, no rings were given). That is, it is certainly arguably “sexist”, as is most wedding traditions, but no big deal (unless of course one of the two people involved think it’s a big deal). The issue here is mountains and molehills … ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/151 "2014-11-14T18:21:42Z")
If I had asked him, he would have said No, so I told him instead. He and I were not fond of each other’s guts, although he/I came around in a few years. I have been warned that my daughter’s boyfriend will ask my permission one of these days. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/152 "2014-11-14T18:22:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No one is saying they are. Point here is that the “sexism” inherent in making a traditional gesture of respect in this case is pretty well harmless - from what I hear from actual people in this thread. Everyone thinks their own version of sexism, racism, homophobia, or the like is harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/153 "2014-11-14T18:24:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yep, we all have such choices to make. Family traditions are not immune from being sexist, or racist, or homophobic, or anything. Family members are also not immune. > > As for your commentary that there is no harm in these sorts of “traditional” gestures, I strongly disagree. There is harm in perpetuating the idea that men are and should be in a position to negate women’s desires, that daughters, but not sons, need to ask permission to get married, that paternalism and chauvinism are cute, that showing respect to a woman’s father is desirable but showing respect to her mother is immaterial and, apparently from this thread, that family traditions can’t be sexist, or if they are they shouldn’t be called sexist because that’s mean. You had by my count written 1,727 awesome posts before today, **jsgoddess**. This makes an even great gross. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/154 "2014-11-14T18:31:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Everyone thinks their own version of sexism, racism, homophobia, or the like is harmless. Of course. But the person alleging harm does, typically, bear the burden of demonstrating what that harm is. Additonally, I’ll point out - again - that this is not in fact “my own” version of sexism - as I did not, in fact, ask my father in law for permission. It is someone else’s version of sexism, one I do not share, but one I cannot see much - or any - harm in. Nor have you articulated any that passes examination. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/155 "2014-11-14T18:56:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is someone else’s version of sexism, one I do not share, but one I cannot see much - or any - harm in. Nor have you articulated any that passes examination. Harmless sexism. Of course. How foolish of me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/156 "2014-11-14T18:56:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Everyone thinks their own version of sexism, racism, homophobia, or the like is harmless. I’d still like to know if asking the future bride’s mother for permission is sexism as well. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/157 "2014-11-14T19:18:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Harmless sexism. Of course. How foolish of me. How convenient it is, to substitute labelling for evidence and argument. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/158 "2014-11-14T19:21:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How convenient it is, to substitute labelling for evidence and argument. You acknowledged it was sexism. You just think it’s benign sexism. I don’t believe in the existence of benign sexism, racism, homophobia, or other bigotry. I think the small forms add up to the big ones, and are good indicators of a systemic problem. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/159 "2014-11-14T19:30:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You acknowledged it was sexism. You just think it’s benign sexism. > > I don’t believe in the existence of benign sexism, racism, homophobia, or other bigotry. I think the small forms add up to the big ones, and are good indicators of a systemic problem. You won’t acknowledge the existence of molehills, as they could add up to mountains. Thus, you wish to treat every molehill as a mountain. To my mind, this particular molehill does not add up to a hill worth damaging one’s relationship with one’s future wife over, let alone a mountain. Labelling something as “sexist” says nothing fundamental about that thing, unless it is coupled with some actual harms. Pretty well everything about marriage can be labelled as “sexist” by someone, and has - including its existence as a category of relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/160 "2014-11-14T19:32:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How convenient it is, to substitute labelling for evidence and argument. I don’t understand your difficulty with this concept. It’s not complicated. The harm of this tradition comes from perpetuating the idea — if not the practice — that a woman is expected to seek permission from her own parents before getting married, but a man is NOT expected to do the same. You made a comment earlier in the thread about the son having to do the _asking_, but that’s not the same thing. We’re talking about a male and a female being placed in the exact same role, but having different expectations based on nothing more than their sex. The harm comes from continuing to teach the idea that this is acceptable when it makes no sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478.md?page=9)