# Straight married men: did you ask your wife's father for her hand in marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478 "2014-11-12T21:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/161 "2014-11-14T19:37:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Labelling something as “sexist” says nothing fundamental about that thing, unless it is coupled with some actual harms. The actual harm is in being sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/162 "2014-11-14T19:42:11Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I don’t understand your difficulty with this concept. It’s not complicated. The harm of this tradition comes from perpetuating the idea — if not the practice — that a woman is expected to seek permission from her own parents before getting married, but a man is NOT expected to do the same. > > You made a comment earlier in the thread about the son having to do the _asking_, but that’s not the same thing. We’re talking about a male and a female being placed in the exact same role, but having different expectations based on nothing more than their sex. The harm comes from continuing to teach the idea that this is acceptable when it makes no sense. First, it isn’t a woman seeking permission from her own parents. Where are you getting that idea from? It is simply factually wrong. What it is, is a ritual - clearly archaic - of the man formally seeking permission from the parents of his bride to be, to marry her. Nobody we have actually heard of in this thread literally believes such permission would be withheld - or they would not ask. It is a ritual. Yes, it is based on the sexual roles of the participants - like much else of ritual import that takes place around weddings, like (for example) the MAN asking the WOMAN to marry, or the MAN giving the WOMAN and engagement-ring, or the WOMAN wearing white. So it is, arguably, “sexist”. Yes, it has a history replete with harmful sexist notions - as, it should be pointed out, does marriage itself. However, in today’s world, as it is actually practiced, it is harmless - a mere gesture of respect (often, as we have seen, requested by the bride). Certainly considerably more harmless that “the man asking the woman” or “the man giving a ring”, or “the woman wearing white”. Again, a molehill. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/163 "2014-11-14T19:46:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The actual harm is in being sexist. How wonderfully circular. Marriage is sexist. It is based on archaic, sexist notions of family ownership of women - all of the rituals associated with marriage re-enforce this. Thus, those who participate in marriage are participating in harm. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/164 "2014-11-14T19:48:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yes, it is based on the sexual roles of the participants - like much else of ritual import that takes place around weddings, like (for example) the MAN asking the WOMAN to marry, or the MAN giving the WOMAN and engagement-ring, or the WOMAN wearing white. So it is, arguably, “sexist”. > > Yes, it has a history replete with harmful sexist notions - as, it should be pointed out, does marriage itself. So, let’s fix these things, rather than saying they are harmless. We don’t have to rank things in order of offensiveness and have a cut off where we won’t comment. Pointing out the inherent sexism in asking the bride’s father or parents and not the groom’s doesn’t make us unable to point out other sexism. We’re not actually rationed in sexism-identification. Someone starts a thread on one of these other topics? We’ll talk about that. In here, we’re talking about the groom asking the father for the bride’s hand in marriage. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/165 "2014-11-14T19:52:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How wonderfully circular. > > Marriage is sexist. It is based on archaic, sexist notions of family ownership of women - all of the rituals associated with marriage re-enforce this. Thus, those who participate in marriage are participating in harm. True or false? False. Something being based on a sexist foundation in much of the world does not mean that the current manifestation of it is sexist. We can see that as SSM progresses. Also false in that not all of the rituals reinforce it at all. Also false in that many people reject many or all of the rituals. If the “asking the father for the bride’s hand” had mutated into both bride and groom visiting both sets of parents seeking a blessing I’d say it wasn’t sexist even though the original idea it sprang from was clearly sexist. Rituals can be transformed from their original state. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/166 "2014-11-14T19:53:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, let’s fix these things, rather than saying they are harmless. We don’t have to rank things in order of offensiveness and have a cut off where we won’t comment. Pointing out the inherent sexism in asking the bride’s father or parents and not the groom’s doesn’t make us unable to point out other sexism. We’re not actually rationed in sexism-identification. Someone starts a thread on one of these other topics? We’ll talk about that. In here, we’re talking about the groom asking the father for the bride’s hand in marriage. Here “we”, being straight married men, were asking who participated in this ritual. “You” felt the need to point out that this is inherently sexist. So “I” pointed out that this label, in absence of any evidence of actual harm to anyone, is meaningless, and so does not require a “fix”, any more than any other marriage ritual. Though nice try with claiming _I_ am hijacking! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/167 "2014-11-14T19:54:57Z")
Are we talking about getting permission, or a blessing? There’s a world of difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/168 "2014-11-14T19:56:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > False. Something being based on a sexist foundation in much of the world does not mean that the current manifestation of it is sexist. We can see that as SSM progresses. > > Also false in that not all of the rituals reinforce it at all. > > Also false in that many people reject many or all of the rituals. > > If the “asking the father for the bride’s hand” had mutated into both bride and groom visiting both sets of parents seeking a blessing I’d say it wasn’t sexist even though the original idea it sprang from was clearly sexist. Rituals can be transformed from their original state. Agreed. And my point being that, given the actual evidence in this very thread, it already has so transformed, to the point where it is a harmless ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/169 "2014-11-14T19:57:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here “we”, being straight married men, were asking who participated in this ritual. > > “You” felt the need to point out that this is inherently sexist. As the writer of the OP, I feel obliged to point out that the thread question was to both men & women; there just wasn’t room in the thread title for the long version, but the OP clearly asks both men & women in straight marriages to answer. I didn’t ask the question of gays & lesbians because long-standing customs for same-sex unions haven’t been established. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/170 "2014-11-14T19:59:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are we talking about getting permission, or a blessing? There’s a world of difference between the two. I would define “getting permission” as actually asking a question in which the father of the bride was free, in actual fact, to say “no” and make it stick. So far, I don’t think anyone has claimed to be following that form. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/171 "2014-11-14T19:59:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here “we”, being straight married men, were asking who participated in this ritual. > > “You” felt the need to point out that this is inherently sexist. Nice job reading the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/172 "2014-11-14T20:00:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > As the writer of the OP, I feel obliged to point out that the thread question was to both men & women; there just wasn’t room in the thread title for the long version, but the OP clearly asks both men & women in straight marriages to answer. I didn’t ask the question of gays & lesbians because long-standing customs for same-sex unions haven’t been established. Fair enough; it wasn’t my intent to claim that straight married women could not answer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/173 "2014-11-14T20:03:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Nice job reading the OP. Your claim _I_ am hijacking is still nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/174 "2014-11-14T21:07:12Z")
Sort of. My now-wife and I lived in different cities and were meeting at her parent’s house which was coincidentally more or less half way between. It was the first time I met them. I already had the ring in my pocket and was planning to propose that weekend, but her family is very traditional and I did want him to approve (I figured the rest of my life would be easier if her parents liked me). He pulled me aside the first afternoon to ask me a bunch of questions, and that’s when I told him I’d like his blessing to marry his daughter (left unsaid: “because I’m going to marry her anyway.”) I had known my wife’s cousins (her father’s sister’s family) for years and already had their endorsement, so it wasn’t a tough decision for him. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/175 "2014-11-14T21:25:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Your claim _I_ am hijacking is still nonsense. I wasn’t accusing you of hijacking. I was saying that in a thread about asking a father’s permission, claims that it’s an unimportant topic don’t make sense. If you don’t want to talk about it because it’s too molehilly for you, you don’t have to talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/176 "2014-11-14T21:26:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, let’s fix these things, rather than saying they are harmless. If they are harmless, why do we need to fix them? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/177 "2014-11-14T21:31:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I wasn’t accusing you of hijacking. I was saying that in a thread about asking a father’s permission, claims that it’s an unimportant topic don’t make sense. If you don’t want to talk about it because it’s too molehilly for you, you don’t have to talk about it. The topic of whether or not the custom is harmful and needs to be “fixed” is a significant one. Is your position that only those claiming it must be “fixed” are allowed to post? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/178 "2014-11-15T00:18:14Z")
My two cents: Prior to this thread, I was completely unaware that the whole “asking the father for her hand” thing was still, well, a thing. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/179 "2014-11-15T00:26:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The topic of whether or not the custom is harmful and needs to be “fixed” is a significant one. > > Is your position that only those claiming it must be “fixed” are allowed to post? 😕 My position is that you have been trying to shut me down for the last several exchanges, first by saying I was making a mountain out of a molehill (a little shocking you didn’t mention hysteria), later by suggesting that I was a usurper by even posting. My position is that a thread about this custom is where discussion of the custom should happen, rather than your attempt to claim it’s so unimportant. If you don’t think it’s important, you don’t have to keep talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478/180 "2014-11-15T00:40:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > My position is that a thread about this custom is where discussion of the custom should happen, rather than your attempt to claim it’s so unimportant. If you don’t think it’s important, you don’t have to keep talking about it. Ah, I reread your post and find I misread it the first time. Sorry for misunderstanding and misrepresenting what you were saying. No, I don’t expect people only to post if they agree with me. But you do agree with me that it’s sexist. Your position is just that it’s sexist but it doesn’t matter. That’s something that’s fodder, in my opinion, for a different thread. So I’m not going to engage in further conversation about whether there are levels of sexism that are too small to bother with in this thread. I will still engage in conversation about whether the issue is sexist in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-married-men-did-you-ask-your-wifes-father-for-her-hand-in-marriage/704478.md?page=10)