# Strange electrical problem - do I need an expert? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 13, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873 "2016-11-13T18:41:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/1 "2016-11-13T18:41:17Z")
I’ve just discovered a strange electrical problem in my house and I’m taking it to the Dope because I’m not sure how urgent this is. I was moving a TV this weekend into a bedroom and when I plugged it in, everything on that circuit went dead for a moment - not only the outlet, but the overhead lights in the room which I’m certain are on the same circuit but on their own switch. I jiggled the plug very, very lightly and everything came back on. Testing this once again, I barely touched the plug and things went out for an instant and then came back on. I turned off the breaker and then tried to tighten the screws on the outlet itself, but they were attached through the small inserts on the back of the outlet (what are those called?) rather than the screws on the side. Nothing seemed loose in any case. But then I started thinking, why would both the outlets and the lights go out together? My next suspicion was a bad breaker - but how would jiggling an outlet cause that? (The breaker did not trip, in case it isn’t clear.) This is the first issue I’ve had with this circuit, or anything like it in this house. But now I’m starting to wonder if there is a more complex problem underlying this glitch, like a short somewhere or something. Any opinions or thoughts before I call an electrician this week? If you suspect it’s something rather simple, like replacing a switch or an outlet, im fully comfortable doing that, but anything more dangerous or that needs diagnosing, I’m ready to call in a professional. . ---
**Author:** ![CerebrAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@CerebrAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CerebrAl)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/2 "2016-11-13T18:53:42Z")
That is a loose wire or connection that will cause arcing…sparks. This could cause a fire. I suggest you have someone check it out at your earliest convenience. If you have a meter…Throw the breaker (off). Check to make sure it’s not hot… then remove the outlet and look for loose wires. I’m guessing that it will be the white one. Perhaps the outlet was used as a junction and there is just too many wires connected to the outlet. Post some pictures…how old is this place? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/3 "2016-11-13T18:56:42Z")
Replace the outlet. It sounds as if an internal connector has gone bad. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/4 "2016-11-13T19:15:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I turned off the breaker and then tried to tighten the screws on the outlet itself, but they were attached through the small inserts on the back of the outlet (what are those called?) rather than the screws on the side. Nothing seemed loose in any case. But then I started thinking, why would both the outlets and the lights go out together? Those inserts in the back are referred to as _“stab-in”_ connectors. It’s a way to allow electricians to wire up a new house more quickly; instead of wrapping the wire around a screw terminal, and tightening the screw, they just stick the wire in that slot. It’s a perfect example of a job being done in a way to save time and money up front, with the unfortunate result that failures will likely occur years later, that will end up wasting more time and money than was initially saved. I have a very low opinion of this method, and of the idea that switch and receptacle manufacturers would cater to it by even providing these inferior connections on their products. I wouldn’t really want to advise someone who isn’t a qualified electrician to mess with this, but since you’re apparently going to go ahead with it anyway, I might as well tell you that what I would do, in this instance, is to pull the wires out of those slots, or cut them if necessary, strip them properly, and connect them properly using the screw terminals on the device. That is what the electrician who wired this ought to have done in the first place, but he was probably working under orders to give priority to speed rather than quality. Make sure you pay proper attention to which color wires go to which sides of the receptacle. The green or bare wire is ground, it goes to a terminal that has a green screw. I don’t think stab-ins are allowed for the ground, so that’s probably already connected properly. The white wire is the neutral. If you look closely at the receptacle, you’ll see that one slot is a bit longer than the other. Looking at the receptacle from the front, with the ground (larger round hole) down, this longer slot will be on the left. Conventionally, the screw terminal for this slot will have a silver-colored screw. That’s where the white wire goes. The black wire is the hot, and it goes to the shorter slot on the right; its screw terminal, by convention, should have a brass-colored screw. ——— As for the lights going out with the receptacle, that’s a result of something else which I also consider to be a bad practice; of daisy-chaining wiring through a receptacle, such that the circuit is broken to anything farther down that circuit, if the connection is lost to that receptacle. I believe the current National Electrical Code prohibits the neutral from being daisy-chained in such a manner, but allows it for the hot; but nethertheless, I think it is not at all uncommon to find this done for both the hot and the neutral. I bet you’ve got two sets of wires connected to that receptacle don’t you? Two white neutrals, and two black hots. One of those sets is the power coming in from farther up the circuit, and the other is power being fed out to anything farther down the circuit. Disconnect the receptacle, and everything farther down the circuit loses power. The correct way to wire this is to wire-nut the two neutrals together with a third piece of wire, about 6″ in length, hook that third wire to the receptacle, and, likewise, to wire-nut the two hots together with a third piece of wire, and connect that to the receptacle. This way, the circuit farther down does not depend on the connection to that receptacle. Again, this was a case of doing things the fast, cheap way to begin with, creating problems later on that would have been avoided if it was done right the first time. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/5 "2016-11-13T20:15:59Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > Those inserts in the back are referred to as _“stab-in”_ connectors. It’s a way to allow electricians to wire up a new house more quickly; instead of wrapping the wire around a screw terminal, and tightening the screw, they just stick the wire in that slot. > > It’s a perfect example of a job being done in a way to save time and money up front, with the unfortunate result that failures will likely occur years later, that will end up wasting more time and money than was initially saved. I have a very low opinion of this method, and of the idea that switch and receptacle manufacturers would cater to it by even providing these inferior connections on their products. > > I wouldn’t really want to advise someone who isn’t a qualified electrician to mess with this, but since you’re apparently going to go ahead with it anyway, I might as well tell you that what I would do, in this instance, is to pull the wires out of those slots, or cut them if necessary, strip them properly, and connect them properly using the screw terminals on the device. That is what the electrician who wired this ought to have done in the first place, but he was probably working under orders to give priority to speed rather than quality. > > Make sure you pay proper attention to which color wires go to which sides of the receptacle. > > The green or bare wire is ground, it goes to a terminal that has a green screw. I don’t think stab-ins are allowed for the ground, so that’s probably already connected properly. The white wire is the neutral. If you look closely at the receptacle, you’ll see that one slot is a bit longer than the other. Looking at the receptacle from the front, with the ground (larger round hole) down, this longer slot will be on the left. Conventionally, the screw terminal for this slot will have a silver-colored screw. That’s where the white wire goes. The black wire is the hot, and it goes to the shorter slot on the right; its screw terminal, by convention, should have a brass-colored screw. > ——— > > As for the lights going out with the receptacle, that’s a result of something else which I also consider to be a bad practice; of daisy-chaining wiring through a receptacle, such that the circuit is broken to anything farther down that circuit, if the connection is lost to that receptacle. I believe the current National Electrical Code prohibits the neutral from being daisy-chained in such a manner, but allows it for the hot; but nethertheless, I think it is not at all uncommon to find this done for both the hot and the neutral. > > I bet you’ve got two sets of wires connected to that receptacle don’t you? Two white neutrals, and two black hots. One of those sets is the power coming in from farther up the circuit, and the other is power being fed out to anything farther down the circuit. Disconnect the receptacle, and everything farther down the circuit loses power. > > The correct way to wire this is to wire-nut the two neutrals together with a third piece of wire, about 6″ in length, hook that third wire to the receptacle, and, likewise, to wire-nut the two hots together with a third piece of wire, and connect that to the receptacle. This way, the circuit farther down does not depend on the connection to that receptacle. Again, this was a case of doing things the fast, cheap way to begin with, creating problems later on that would have been avoided if it was done right the first time. My name is **friedo** and I endorse this message. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/6 "2016-11-13T21:52:01Z")
i agree with the posters who said you should call somebody, and not try to do it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/7 "2016-11-13T22:17:00Z")
I swear I read the title as “strange electoral problem.” Post election hangover. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/8 "2016-11-13T22:57:37Z")
What \*\*Bob \*\*said, as he probably wasn’t on his phone when he replied like some of us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/9 "2016-11-13T23:41:57Z")
Just replace the receptacle with a new one: 1. Turn off circuit breaker. 2. Using an AC voltmeter, measure voltage between each slot and ground. They should all be 0 V. 3. Remove plastic outlet cover. 4. Unscrew the two screws securing the receptacle to the box. 5. Gently pull out receptacle 1 or 2 inches. 6. Try to remove each black and white wire from the receptacle. (If it’s a stab-type, there may be a slot you can stick a small screwdriver in to release the tab.) If you can’t remove the wire, then simply cut it as close as possible to the receptacle. 7. Remove ground wire from receptacle. 8. Discard receptacle. 9. If a wire was cut, strip insulation from the wire. (Look on the back of your new receptacle… there should be a line showing the strip length.) 10. Install new receptacle. When buying a new receptacle, do not get a cheap one. The cheap ones have simple screw terminals, which means you have to wrap the copper wire under the screw. The more expensive ones have screw terminals with integral clamps. You simply shove the straight, copper wire in a slot and then tighten the screw. I _really_ like these type, and the extra cost is worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/10 "2016-11-13T23:48:40Z")
What crafter man said. You don’t need an electrician for this. I also agree that the better quality outlets are awesome. I only use that kind. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/11 "2016-11-14T00:17:15Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > the better quality outlets are awesome. I only use that kind. As mentioned, I _hate_ wrapping a wire under a screw head. It’s an exercise in frustration. [Here](http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Receptacle_20A_0054_DJFcs.jpg) is a photo of the type of receptacle you should use. (Full article [here](http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Outlet_Backwired.php).) Notice the black wire is shoved in a hole under the screw head, between two clamping plates. Here’s the procedure: 1. Strip insulation from wire using a pair of wire strippers. (Look on the back of the new receptacle… there should be a line showing the strip length.) 2. Make sure the stripped portion of the wire (the now bare copper) is straight. 3. Loosen screw. 4. Insert wire into hole. 5. Tighten screw. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/12 "2016-11-14T01:06:46Z")
Hm, I was hoping for a consensus either way on the “it might cost $200 for the electrician but you’re literally dealing with the risk of fire on this” option on one hand, and the “this is such a straightforward thing that you should save yourself $197” on the other hand. I greatly appreciate everyone’s contributions and expertise here, but since there isn’t a consensus, I’m strongly inclined to call the electrician I’ve used before and trust. The only issue is that I won’t be able to do this for several weeks due to other obligations. Would anyone be concerned that this is an issue that should be immediately addressed? (I could easily replace the outlet some night soon by myself, but there’s no way I could be home for a normal working hour appointment for a while.) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/13 "2016-11-14T01:25:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Hm, I was hoping for a consensus either way on the “it might cost $200 for the electrician but you’re literally dealing with the risk of fire on this” option on one hand, and the “this is such a straightforward thing that you should save yourself $197” on the other hand. When it comes to electrical work, my advice is to _anyone_ is to have a licensed electrician do it if you have doubts about your abilities to do the job properly. Having said that, it’s a pretty simple job for anyone who has experience doing this type of stuff. Do you have any friends or relatives who have experience doing electrical work and whom you trust? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Would anyone be concerned that this is an issue that should be immediately addressed? It sounds like there’s an intermittent connection at the receptacle. This is dangerous, as it could lead arcing or a glowing contact. The circuit should really be de-energized. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/14 "2016-11-14T01:49:24Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > When it comes to electrical work, my advice is to _anyone_ is to have a licensed electrician do it if you have doubts about your abilities to do the job properly. Having said that, it’s a pretty simple job for anyone who has experience doing this type of stuff. Do you have any friends or relatives who have experience doing electrical work and whom you trust? I used to work as an electrician in various theaters, so I have no doubt I can safely and correctly replace a receptacle (as I have many many times before); what I have low confidence in is my ability to diagnose a problem in residential wiring, which after reading people’s responses that recommended a qualified electrician do the work, I’m inclined to err on the side of prudence. > [@](#): > > It sounds like there’s an intermittent connection at the receptacle. This is dangerous, as it could lead arcing or a glowing contact. The circuit should really be de-energized. Good to know, I appreciate the warning very much. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/15 "2016-11-14T16:51:28Z")
So far as residential wiring… 1. Things are wired from one device (outlet/light) to the next. A poor connection at one point will keep any devices “downstream” from that from working. 2. Wires poked in through the back are POOR CHEAP CONNECTIONS and prone to failure. Exception “Industrial Grade Outlets” where the screws actually apply pressure to the wiring connections. Anyway screwed down connections are best. 3. It is important for higher amperage connections to have a certain “tightness” - measured in “inch-pounds”. The specifications for this are on the device manufacturer’s web site, installation instructions, etc. > **[Torque screwdriver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_screwdriver)** > > A torque screwdriver is a screwdriver with components that ensure tightening to a specified torque, ensuring tightening which is sufficient, but not excessive. An insufficiently tightened screw connection may loosen in operation, and excessive tightening can damage parts; for example, if the nuts holding the wheel of a car in place are too loose, or damaged by overtightening, a wheel may come off at speed. Torque screwdrivers are used in mechanical production, manufacturing, and maintenance; thei... “Tighten screws over wire loops with a force of 12-14 in.-lbs. of torque”… (See page 2 - Step 4) [http://communities.leviton.com/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/1928-102-1-2861/Ins%205245%205645.pdf](http://communities.leviton.com/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/1928-102-1-2861/Ins%205245%205645.pdf) 1. There are some potentially VERY DANGEROUS wiring situations in many home kitchens called a MWBC. Also loose neutrals and energized grounds/neutrals. For that reason, ALWAYS TURN OFF THE MAIN power before working on any wiring in a home. 2. If it is something simple like replacing an outlet, then an electrician will have a smaller fee to do the work. Rewire your whole house, then a BIG fee! ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/16 "2016-11-14T17:02:57Z")
P.S. Another residential wiring rule… The GFCI [reset button] is located in the garage behind the BIGGEST stack of boxes! ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/17 "2016-11-15T00:11:51Z")
If like to mention that it’s poor practice to have lights and receptacles on the same circuit. I’m not sure if it’s against current code. Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/18 "2016-11-15T15:43:58Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > If like to mention that it’s poor practice to have lights and receptacles on the same circuit… I wired my house myself and I have the lights on separate circuits from the outlets. This is more common in office buildings. And a good design with lighting circuits in offices is lights on separate circuits, then alternating hallway/office or office/office across hall circuits. So for maintenance, you can turn off the breaker for the lighting in one office, but there will be lighting coming in from the hallway or office across the hall as they would be on different circuits. And many offices have no outside windows whatsoever. Gets QUITE dark if all the lights are off! ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/19 "2016-11-15T19:59:55Z")
> [@Me\_Billy](#): > > P.S. Another residential wiring rule… > > The GFCI [reset button] is located in the garage behind the BIGGEST stack of boxes! NOT TRUE!!! Sometimes they hide it in a completely unrelated room. Why, yes, I do know this from experience. 😃 I was installing a garage door opener when sloppy screwdriver handling tripped the circuit. I could not figure out why the breaker would not re-energize until my wife called out “My hair dryer doesn’t work!”. Yep, the basement garage was on the same GFCI circuit as the upstairs master bathroom. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873/20 "2016-11-17T06:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I used to work as an electrician in various theaters, so I have no doubt I can safely and correctly replace a receptacle (as I have many many times before); what I have low confidence in is my ability to diagnose a problem in residential wiring… [/QUOTE] The hive mind has diagnosed the problem as a poor/intermittent connection. You say you’ve changed edisons before, so just go to the company switch, pull the hot camlock first… 😃 Seriously though, spend more than a buck fifty on the new receptacle, use screw connections instead of the crappy backstabs that got you into this problem to begin with, and give some thought to replacing the others. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strange-electrical-problem-do-i-need-an-expert/771873.md?page=2)