# Stranger in a Strange Land **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 9, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975 "2004-08-09T03:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/61 "2004-08-21T14:45:15Z")
**Wevets,** the passage you quote has never seemed to me to be about evolution. It seems to me to be about how the universe came to be: a created universe vs. one that came about through random chance. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/62 "2004-08-21T15:15:38Z")
Add to that the fact that the book was about spirituality, and a plot point was the existance of archangels and Jubal getting to accept Mike and his “religion.” I don’t see that passage as an attack on evolution at all. **The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress** is an excellent book. In fact, it is on my booklist for American Government. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/63 "2004-08-21T15:24:00Z")
And while we’re talking about the weaker efforts from RAH, I can somehwat agree that IWFNE and NoTB are not among his more stellar work, but there are some things about them that make them worth reading. However, **Farnham’s Freehold** must be the worst waste of paper in his career. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/64 "2004-08-21T15:26:48Z")
**Wevets** , Heinlein apparently (from a wide variety of his writings) held that neither theistic belief, a mechanistic “clockwork universe,” or quantum “random chance” were adequate to explain the Universe we dwell in. While it’s a fool’s game to presume an author’s views based on those of his characters, there are times when he writes _in propria persona_ and asserts POVs implying this. He was extremely chary of stating “religious” views, since he felt that there was no objectively verifiable common referent for most of the terms that would be called for in such discussions. We know a few facts about his belief system, but not necessarily the baggage that they would carry with them. In any case, he was by no means rejecting evolution, but rather the idea that it happened totally by chance, with no teleology possible. (Note that there is a difference between “possible” and “certain.”) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/65 "2004-08-21T21:37:32Z")
Quoth **Starving but Strong** (and discussed by others): > [@](#): > > …the peak of women’s desires was to bear a child. Pregnancy and childbearing was the sole and highest and noblest goal for any ‘normal’ woman. I’m not sure this is sexist, though… Having children also seemed to be pretty high on most of his male characters’ list of priorities. It’s a biological reality that the mother is more involved in the process of making babies than is the father, but beyond that, I don’t see a big difference between the attitudes of Heinlein’s male and female characters. On a more recent point, _Farnham’s Freehold_ isn’t one of his better books, but it’s not nearly as bad as its reputation. I don’t think it’s racist at all, despite the accusations: If anything, it’s anti-racist. Basically what Heinlein did was take the racist society he lived in, and turned it on its head to point up the absurdity of racism. Perhaps our additudes towards race have now matured enough that we can’t relate to the society at the time it was written; if so, that’s probably a good thing, but it makes it easy to miss the point of the book. Now, _Number of the Beast_, on the other hand, only had three good things in the entire book. One of them was the scene of programming the car, and any heterosexual male who’s read it knows what the other two were. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/66 "2004-08-21T22:01:20Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > And while we’re talking about the weaker efforts from RAH, I can somehwat agree that IWFNE and NoTB are not among his more stellar work, but there are some things about them that make them worth reading. However, **Farnham’s Freehold** must be the worst waste of paper in his career. Nah. **Sixth Column** ’s worse. **Farnham’s Freehold** has got some interesting survival scenes. But **Sixth Column** has nothing to redeem it. ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/67 "2004-08-21T22:10:59Z")
I remember in one of his later books, the characters were talking about books, and one of them had SiaSL listed as one of his favorite books. One of the other characters made an unfavorable remark about the book, so you have to wonder if Heinlein was a little embarrassed by the book. Sorry I can’t remember the title of the book, I haven’t read one of his books in years. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/68 "2004-08-21T22:30:19Z")
That would be **Number of the Beast**. Sharpie make the comment that “I didn’t vote for **Stranger** and I’ll refrain from embarrassing anyone who did. My God, the things some writers will do for money!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/69 "2004-08-21T22:53:21Z")
So, what does everyone think Heinlein’s best ‘juvenile’ novel was? My favorites of the juveniles are: \*\*Starman Jones Citizen of the Galaxy Have Space Suit - Will Travel Tunnel in the Sky \*\* Of those, I’d probably say that Citizen of the Galaxy is the best, but some of the others had a bigger impact on me as a young boy because of their themes. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/70 "2004-08-21T23:09:34Z")
My favorites were always **Tunnel In The Sky** and **The Rolling Stones**. All of Heinlein’s juveniles taught me to be self-reliant, to stand up for myself, and to respect learning. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/71 "2004-08-21T23:24:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On a more recent point, _Farnham’s Freehold_ isn’t one of his better books, but it’s not nearly as bad as its reputation. I don’t think it’s racist at all, despite the accusations: If anything, it’s anti-racist. Basically what Heinlein did was take the racist society he lived in, and turned it on its head to point up the absurdity of racism. Perhaps our additudes towards race have now matured enough that we can’t relate to the society at the time it was written; if so, that’s probably a good thing, but it makes it easy to miss the point of the book. I don’t think it’s racist at all. I think it’s Heinlein’s attempt at addressing the racial issues of the era, by turning things inside-out. And he does a job of a high school hack out of it: “Let’s make whites the inferior race and blacks the rulers.” Woo-hoo. What a radical concept. It sure made me think twice about racial prejudices. Apart from that, the whole subplot about his wife, son and how that horny old Hugh got it on with his daughter’s friend is just embarrasing. **Sam Stone** - _Have Space suit, will travel_ will be as popular 100 years from now as _The ghost of Canterville_ is today. It doesn’t matter how dated the technology and assumptions are - it’s a classic fairy tale and probably the best Heinlein ever wrote. And for that, it will be loved well beyond the expiration date of the copyright. While SiaSL will be read by scholars, but not the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Dancer\_Flight](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dancer_flight/32/7601_2.png) [@Dancer\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancer_Flight)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/72 "2004-08-21T23:31:08Z")
> [@Time Stranger](#): > > May I ask why **Number of the Beast** has such a bad rap? It has been years since I’ve read any Heinlein, but I remember liking that one as much as the others… I don’t really remember much about it other than a visit to Oz and black hats though. I don’t know about the others here, but my main beef with this book was that the characters did not have distinct voices. I had to continually backtrack to find the speech tags to identify who was speaking at any given time. It was really irritating because I rarely lose track of who’s saying what when I read. I will say that _Job_ was the only Heinlein book I had to set aside before finishing it. Everything else I’ve read straight through. -DF ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975/73 "2004-08-22T02:04:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Nah. **Sixth Column** ’s worse. **Farnham’s Freehold** has got some interesting survival scenes. But **Sixth Column** has nothing to redeem it. _Sixth Column_ (which does have another name) was an embarrassment to the Heinleins and to their fans. It was his first full novel (two earlier novellas were later expanded to novel length) while he was learning the trade, and depending heavily on John W. Campbell, Jr. Campbell handed Heinlein the concept (which Campbell also wrote in the forgettable _Cloak of Aesir_) involving “the Yellow Peril” (less overtly racist in those just-pre-WWII days than today), the “other spectra,” and the giant projected figure from the end of the book, and told to do what he could to make them work. That it’s still (barely) readable despite the bogus science, the hackneyed conquered-America theme, and Campbell’s heavy-handed dictation of content, is a tribute to the writing skill of even the apprentice Heinlein. On the other hand, _Have Space Suit, Will Travel_ is the near-perfect “introduction to science fiction” novel to hand someone who wants to know what you get out of reading that stuff – quite literally, It starts in a Middle American small town back yard, and by smooth even steps takes you through a double alien peril to another entire galaxy. That the Centerville scenes are stock 1950s America is not horrible – it doesn’t portray that as an ideal, but as a home from which the character ventures elsewhere. And that makes it fly with even today’s teens, despite the fact that usually it’s not quite what they’re used to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stranger-in-a-strange-land/258975.md?page=3)