# Strauss, Zarathustra and Hitler **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459 "2003-03-11T02:30:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![koawala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bb73d2/32.png) [@koawala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koawala)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/1 "2003-03-11T02:30:36Z")
How was Richard Strauss able to compose a piece like Also Sprach Zarathustra during Nazi Germany? Weren’t the Nazis against anything that was non-German? And wasn’t Zarathustra a Persian prophet? If I am way off here could someone give me some history on this piece and Zarathustra? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/2 "2003-03-11T03:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > [From American Symphony Orchestra](http://www.americansymphony.org/dialogues_extensions/99_2000season/2000_03_08/strauss.cfm) > Richard Strauss, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 (1896) > The dramatic and literary bases of Strauss’ early tone poems were diverse and more or less innocent. With the 19th\_century German metaphysical poet Friedrich Nietzsche, and the prophet-figure he distantly based on the ancient Persian mystic philosopher Zoroaster, the composer took his stand on more problematical ground. The cult of the Übermensch, or superman, propounded in 1885 in Nietzsche’s Thus Spake Zarathustra, came half a century later to look dangerously like the foundation for the concept of the super-race that led to Nazism. More at the link, but obviously you tie Nietsche into the whole thing to make it work. I think that Cecil did something on Nietsche once upon a time. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/3 "2003-03-11T03:15:11Z")
First thing you need to do is get a [comprehensive](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140150625/qid=1047351775/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/002-0160228-8428061) Nietzsche collection; one that includes _Also Sprach Zarathustra_ (_Thus Spoke Zarathustra in English_.) Next, read _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_. Now, it’s been a while since I read Nietzsche, but it’s all philosophy. Hitler, like several college students I have run into, was apt to misquote Nietzsche. Your first problem is meaningless in that Nietzsche was indeed German, living from 1844-1900. Now, you’re right that Zarathustra is associated with Zoroastrianism (Zoroaster, and no relation by the way.) It can even be argued that Hebrew exposure to Zoroastrianism changed the way Hebrew society saw some things. However, none of this matters. Nietzsche is using a historical figure to “push” his own ideas. Nietzsche, of course, is famous for the phrase “God is dead” as well as other ideas such as “supermen” (as far as I know, these supermen were not susceptible to kryptonite and never had a Bizarro-twin.) The latter, especially, was one of the ideas used by Hitler. As for Strauss, I don’t know. I’m not a big Strauss fan, although _Also Sprach Zarathustra_ is a kinda fun short piece for the timpanist. On preview, I see I’ve sorta been beaten to the punch. Seriously, though, I would advise a good philosophy course if you can’t get one specifically on Nietzsche, or at least reading one with a good translation and footnotes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/4 "2003-03-11T03:23:38Z")
Well, a) the piece was written in 1896 ;). But b) Strauss based his work, very loosely, on Frederik Nietzsche’s book of the same name. To quote: \*I did not intend to write philosophical music or to portray in music Nietzsche’s great work. I wished to convey by means of music an idea of the development of the human race from its origin, through the various phases of its development, religious and scientific, up to Nietzsche’s idea of the superman. The whole symphonic poem is intended as a homage to Nietzsche’s genius, which found its greatest expression in his book Thus Spake Zarathustra. \* As it happens, _Thus Spake Zarathustra_ ( the book ) was a favorite of the Nazis as well, because of its expression of the concept of an ultimate evolution towards a ‘superman’. Jibed well with Nazi notions of racial notions. Zarathustra himself was sort of the protagonist in Nietzche’s work, acting as a mouthpiece for Nietzche’s ideas. I might get into Hitler’s odd concept of the Germans as descended from ‘Aryans’ ( only true in the sense of a common link as Indo-Europeans ), who the Persians most certainly are ( Iran derives from the same root as Aryan ). But I am uncertain as to Hitler’s interest, if any, in Zoroastrianism. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/5 "2003-03-11T06:25:26Z")
How the Nazis possibly read Zarathustra favorably is beyond me. While it is cynical about many things, it is especially cynical of nationalism and the herd mentality. And it’s superman revolution is all about a personal transformation of moral vision, not any sort of genetic evolution. Nietzsche’s not-well-loved sister is largely responsible for trying to make his ideas fit into Nazism. Strange but true: after Nietzsche lapsed into a helpless stupor and insanity, she basically toted him around like a circus exhibit. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/strauss-zarathustra-and-hitler/160459/6 "2003-03-11T06:25:29Z")
What I want to know is, what’s the tie-in between the Nazis and _2001: A Space Odyssey_!