Streaming companies burying shows - HBO Max and possibly others. Is this allowed?

That comment was specific to the early Sesame Street shows. And dropping those was a reasonable choice. Obviously the conversation has moved to the overall vision for the HBOMAX Discovery WB product.

As above I completely concur that they are making stupid decisions and suspect it will possibly lead to them being culled from the portion of the herd that survives.

Infinity Train was brilliant.

@Banquet_Bear there is little room for stupidity in a very competitive marketplace, whether those who make the stupid choices and create the product are straight white men or whatever intersectional identities you prefer. Being the company of adult straight white men for adult straight white men is reactionary fantasy. If they do that (and it does look as if that is the path) they cut themselves away from much of the best talent and the best stories and large portions of potential audience, who really care more about great stories well told than anything else.

Agreed. A really well-done show.

It still appears to be on Hulu. Does the HBO removal change that?

It’s not. It’s on Hulu Live TV (their $70 per month subscription package). Hulu Live TV isn’t their streaming package, what it does is allow you to watch things on demand from various channels, including Cartoon Network. So yes, today if you have the Live TV subscription from Hulu, you can watch Infinity Train on demand from Cartoon Network. At least part of it. Because only Seasons 1 and 2 were actually broadcast on CN, Seasons 3 and 4 were HBO Max exclusive (and created for that platform). Kind of like how the most recent season of The Orville was created for Hulu, and the latest episodes of Lucifer were created for Netflix, as well as the last season of Arrested Development. Once Seasons 3 and 4 of Infinity Train are gone from HBO Max, they are gone forever.

You might still be able to see the first two seasons from CN itself using Hulu Live TV, but I’m not sure if it will continue to be that way.

You might even lose the first couple of seasons also. Though I’m not sure about that.

Raise the skull and crossbones and sleep well afterwards.

…there is plenty of room for stupidity in the competitive marketplace. Uber still isn’t profitable. People are still investing in crypto. Adam Neumann just got another 350m for another start-up that is going to crash and burn.

Capitalism is built on stupid.

We are talking about the guy who bought us “Honey Boo Boo.” They literally put Batman and Superman up with “Shark Week” and “the 90 Day Fiance Universe” as their franchises on their investor call.

The 90 Day Fiance Universe is what they consider a success. Cheap to make with HUGE franchise potential. Its been going for 9 seasons, debuted in 2014, has 18 spinoffs including international editions.

They don’t want to tell great stories. They don’t need to tell great stories. They can cut margins to the bones by producing yet-another reality franchise. They don’t need to take risks. They don’t need to invest in diverse storytellers. Just more reruns of Friends.

We see what happened when venture capitalists took over journalism. Most of the old-hands are gone. Newsrooms are underfunded, stripped of funding and resources. Entire layers of editorial just removed. There is plenty of room for stupidity in the marketplace, especially if you buy all the competition.

You said you didn’t understand the upset. Well for the people in the industry its upsetting to see your work just disappear. For those that watch HBO Max its upsetting to be binging a show and finishing episode 5 and when you go to watch episode 6 its no longer available on the channel. For the people that work in the film, television and animation industry its upsetting to see one of the big players who had previously committed to creating quality films and television essentially give up on all of that overnight.

There is plenty for all sorts of people to be upset about.

Acceptable for an 11 year old?

Very much so.

You think that Frank Oz and whoever else is left from the early Sesame Street days are as artists upset that the earliest episodes are not available in perpetuity? I don’t. And if they were they would be being silly.

Creators of new content that is being yanked or buried? Yes I think they’ll be upset. And the creative minds will likely be less likely to work with the company even after this team leaves.

Can they succeed as a paid streamer of reality tv and reruns with bigger budget movies aimed at straight white men built on established formulae? Will many pay for Shark Week on an ongoing basis?

I see this more as a retreat and limiting their losses in streaming defeat preemptively. Or idiocy.

According to Wikipedia, as of the end of March, Discovery+ had 24 million subscribers while HBO and HBO MAX together had 77 million. Supposedly they’re going to merge the two streaming services but I remain skeptical that’s there much overlap in the audiences of the two services.

And they are betting on the low cost Discovery+ model for the streaming content model, jettisoning the higher cost, riskier, and creative HBO content. Heck they are even shelving Harry Potter movies as too costly to keep offering.

Even reruns are too rich for their blood now.

Here’s the piece of the puzzle you appear to be missing.

The history of the movie industry is the history of tension between the money people and the creative people. Movies are expensive to produce, so money is required. But movies are also an art form, so creative artists are required.

The money people are gatekeepers as to what gets produced. They would love nothing more than for movies to be made cheaply and predictably so they can count their profits. But movies are an unpredictable business, and the money people are baffled by the creative process and are unable to generate movie product on their own. They try to reduce risk and increase predictability as much as they can, but it never works in the long run. There’s always something like a Big Fat Greek Wedding that comes out of nowhere to dominate the box office, and on the flip side there’s always something like Universal’s abortive Dark Universe “franchise” where they tried to translate the Marvel formula into a different genre and it fails spectacularly. As William Goldman famously said, “Nobody knows anything.”

So, the finance-minded people grit their teeth and try to figure out how to work with the creatives, in order to enjoy the profits of their art. And the creatives grit their teeth and try to sell their artistic impulses as potentially profitable, in order to get the money people to finance their visions. Occasionally you get an executive who understands creatives and can work productively with them, like a Zanuck or a Horn, but they’re not common. And conversely, you sometimes have a creative who intuitively knows how to slot his or her visions into a studio balance sheet; right now Nolan is the king of this. More frequently, though, the money people see the creatives as fanciful lunatics, and the creatives see the money people as unimaginative morons.

This tension is not new. It goes back to early Hollywood: the founding of United Artists comes directly out of this conflict. It’s also the motivation for Jimmy Stewart blowing up the studio-contract model, using his growing clout in the late 40s to establish himself as an authority in his own career instead of just letting the execs tell him what movies he’d be doing. Other stars rapidly followed suit.

The executives didn’t want the inmates running the asylum, of course, and actively tried to push the pendulum back. Two key inflection points are particularly relevant for the current moment: Gulf & Western buying into Desilu and Paramount at the end of the 60s, and Sony buying Columbia in 1989. Both of these were essentially manufacturing companies who looked at the profitability of the movie business and saw it as just another product to add to the portfolio, but then were frustrated when they tried to apply the same managerial principles to the production pipeline. They didn’t understand that you can’t predict input and output for each film; you have to manage a seasonal slate where everything is a gamble to at least some extent, and hope that the occasional hits will pay for the inevitable losers. This drove the manufacturing execs nuts, and they spent years wrestling with the talent and their agencies. In Sony’s case, they resorted to hiring two flamboyant movie producers to run their studio division, who wound up costing the parent company millions of dollars of losses as they went bananas on pet projects. Ultimately, both deals led to the transformation of both companies, as the manufactured product culture of the parent gave way to the realities of the entertainment industry.

The new WB CEO David Zaslav is just the latest incarnation of what industry people sometimes call “businessbots.” He thinks he knows better. He looks at spreadsheets of the past and believes it provides a map to the future. He finds the contribution of the creatives mystifying and frustrating, so he wants to compress it to a line item and stop thinking about it.

For an illustration of his idiotic mindset: Shortly after taking his position, he attacked WB’s longstanding relationship with director Clint Eastwood. Why are we still dealing with this guy, he asked, when his last couple of movies turned only a modest profit? The experienced people at the studio answered, We have a good relationship with Clint. The scoffing response from Zaslav: it’s not show friendship, it’s show business. If he doesn’t make us money, he’s out. What he fails to understand is that show business is a relationship business. Eastwood makes movies professionally and predictably, on time and on budget. They always break even, and most do at least a little better. This kind of reliability is rare in the movie business, and is valuable all by itself. And you cultivate it, because occasionally you get a breakthrough like Eastwood’s American Sniper, which was a huge hit, and made the whole relationship worthwhile from a business standpoint. Zaslav doesn’t get this.

For an even clearer view into his mindset, consider how he’s approaching the DC slate. He has signaled his interest in the Snyderverse, and wants Affleck back in the batsuit. These movies underperformed, but somehow he thinks of them as a better bet than the upcoming Aquaman 2, even though the first one was their biggest hit, and the second is highly anticipated in audience polls, and both Snyder and Affleck have said they’re not interested in revisiting their take on the franchise. I suppose it’s a coincidence that the director and star of Aquaman are both ethnic. Right?

The point of this very long post is that there is lots of opportunity for stupidity in Hollywood, because there is a specific peculiarity in the industry that creates cycles of a particular and predictable form of stupidity. It occurs and recurs with depressing regularity, as new generations of executives roll into town and think they’ve solved the algorithm of entertainment that will finally bring those creative weirdos to heel. He’s wrong, and he will damage the studio’s relationships with their artistic collaborators, exactly as previous generations of businessbot dummies have been wrong and done damage.

But the finance people will close ranks, as always, and instead of admitting that their businessbot ways are wrong, they’ll ease the guy out in five or seven years with an absurd go-away exit settlement, set him up as an independent executive like an Amy Pascal, and quietly try to pick up the pieces.

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

And I will note that HBO Max isn’t really profitable. AT&T took on a good amount of debt to purchase WarnerMedia thinking it’d make enough to pay off that debt… it didn’t. AT&T created HBO Max because Warner previous had HBO Go and HBO Now and it was a mess. HBO Max continued to lose money, so AT&T spun it out and they merged the new company with Discovery (with AT&T shareholders getting 71% of the new company). So, Zaslav is tasked with a) making HBO profitable, and b) paying off the $50mil in debt that was attached to Warner.

Now, note, HBO itself has gotten an influx of cash (mostly from slashing the “Max” stuff), and Casey Bloys was kept on as head of the network. They have a number of projects that they are working on - and not just GOT spinoffs.

This is going to be a reality for a lot of streamers, though. People were really upset with Netflix for raising prices, but they are only the first who have decided they can’t survive forever losing money in exchange for subscriber growth (and IIRC, Disney+ just raised it’s price $3 a month and are adding an ad supported tier).

I’m skeptical about some of what’s being suggested. That David Zaslav wants to slash and burn the scripted content of Warner Bros in favor of the unscripted content of Discovery. If that’s the case, why did he even spend the $50 billion buying Warner Bros? Why not just continue investing in Ninety-Day Fiancé, Property Brothers, and whatever is on Food Network? And why cut the Harry Potter films from the streaming service when that’s one of the tentpole franchises for Warner Bros?

Netflix, for example, advises member to rate content, etc, because it shows them that certain viewing items are actually wanted by their customers. If everyone did this, there would be less chance that items people still want to see would disappear. In fact, they keep track of searches, also. If they get a lot of searches for items that have removed from the active viewing list, they do in some cases return them.

I know Netflix tracks very closely what actually gets watched. My guess is that’s more important than how people rate content. I assume HBO MAX and others also track what gets watched and how often. I assume that drove the decision to drop early episodes of Sesame Street.

What surprises me about the Sesame Street thing is that people are upset that HBO Max dropped about 200 episodes although over 400 are still available - but there are 52 seasons and over 4500 episodes and there has never been a time when every episode was available. I’m not really sure why dropping from 600 something episodes to 400 something is a problem when no one seemed to have a problem with only 600 ish being available to begin with.

That’s true, but DOES it cost them anything to keep stuff in their library? It’s all just digital files, right? Seems like the only thing preventing them from making everything they have available is this system of basing residuals on availability rather than on actual views, and there’s no reason I can see why that couldn’t be fixed.

This also accounts for why Woody Allen and Adam Sandler have been able to make movies year after year for decades.

Excellent primer, by the way, Cervaise.

I would think so but that’s something they need to work out between them and SAG, and it might not be easy. In the mean time, it makes sense to drop dead weight.