# Street Epistemology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433 "2015-06-13T13:18:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/41 "2015-06-15T13:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Boghossian’s major point is that “Faith is an unreliable method of finding truth.” How does he know this, especially in matters of ethics and morality? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/42 "2015-06-15T14:17:19Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I take it then it is not a matter of faith. That is, **your rejection of the idea of divinely inspired writings logically derives from the fact that you don’t believe in God**. Assuming we are both trying to understand things rationally, can we agree on the bolded statement in this post? The bolded part is so blindingly obvious that I can’t imagine why you would need to ask that question. You seem to be asking: If you don’t believe in Santa Claus, do you accept presents? Uhm, yeah, I “accept” presents from my family and friends, but I don’t think some man in a red suite came down my chimney to put them under a tree. You are making this _waaaaaaaaaay_ more complicated than it needs to be. Hence the confusion. The Bible exists, and so I “accept” it. Do I think it is the word of God? Well, how could I, if _ **I don’t fucking believe in God in the first place???** _ ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/43 "2015-06-15T19:47:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How does he know this, especially in matters of ethics and morality? > > Regards, > Shodan Well, I suppose he would say that those are different issues. I don’t think he is promoting replacing faith with morals or ethics, but in just pointing out that faith does not lead to good decision making. Having faith doesn’t make one moral or ethical. Not having faith does not make one more or ethical, either. But having faith adds a level of complexity to issues of morals and ethics that can lead one to false conclusions. He has asked: “If God asked you to kill all left handed people, and you were absolutely positive it was God, should you do so? Would you do so?” ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/44 "2015-06-15T19:52:41Z")
Sorry, I thought this was the thread about Street Episiotomies. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/45 "2015-06-15T20:10:29Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > He has asked: “If God asked you to kill all left handed people, and you were absolutely positive it was God, should you do so? Would you do so?” How would you answer this question, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/46 "2015-06-15T20:12:25Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I take it then it is not a matter of faith. That is, **your rejection of the idea of divinely inspired writings logically derives from the fact that you don’t believe in God**. Assuming we are both trying to understand things rationally, can we agree on the bolded statement in this post? There’s more to it than that. There are thousands of writings that are claimed to be divinely inspired, and yet pretty much each of them contradicts all of the others. So, if you’re defending the Bible, you have to tell me why you reject all the others. What makes one privileged over the others? It isn’t only an argument from first principles, but also one from real-world circumstances. Again, the Pope rejects Hesiod’s Theogony and the Word of Zeus. Why does he get to do this? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/47 "2015-06-15T20:32:04Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I take it then it is not a matter of faith. That is, **your rejection of the idea of divinely inspired writings logically derives from the fact that you don’t believe in God**. Assuming we are both trying to understand things rationally, can we agree on the bolded statement in this post? “Reject” is a strange word. I reject the existence of God and reject the divinity of the Bible just as much as I reject the existence of Santa Claus and reject the historicity of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. That is to say, I noticed that they were fictional works and treat them as so, just as I would treat L. Ron Hubbard’s sci-fi novels and his religious novels the same: fiction, written by a conman who succeeded in fooling some folks and failed with others. And I do and will continue to feel sorry for children who are taught to believe this stuff while their minds are still developing. One presumes that you are rejecting the truth of these: ``` Abenaki mythology Anishinaabe Blackfoot mythology Cherokee mythology Chickasaw mythology Choctaw mythology Creek mythology Crow mythology Ghost Dance Guarani mythology Haida mythology Ho-Chunk mythology Hopi mythology Inca mythology Indian Shaker Church Inuit mythology Iroquois mythology Keetoowah Nighthawk Society Kuksu Kwakiutl mythology Lakota mythology Leni Lenape mythology Longhouse religion Mapuche mythology Midewiwin Miwok Navajo mythology Nootka mythology Ohlone mythology Olmec mythology Pomo mythology Pawnee mythology Salish mythology Selk'nam religion Seneca mythology Tsimshian mythology Urarina Ute mythology Wyandot religion Zuni mythology Berber mythology Egyptian mythology Cushitic mythology Bantu mythology Bushongo mythology Lugbara mythology Baluba mythology Mbuti mythology Dinka mythology Lotuko mythology Bantu mythology Akamba mythology Maasai mythology Bantu mythology Lozi mythology Tumbuka mythology Zulu mythology Khoisan mythology Akan mythology Fon and Ewe mythology Efik mythology Igbo mythology Serer mythology Yoruba mythology ``` If your parents had been Urarina and you had grown up among the Urarina people, what religion do you think you would follow today? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/48 "2015-06-15T20:42:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How does he know this, especially in matters of ethics and morality? Different religion traditions offer different rules for what constitutes ethical and moral behavior. If ethics and morality could be determined through faith, people of faith would agree on ethics and morals. QED, faith is not a good guide to ethical or moral behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/49 "2015-06-15T21:12:58Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Different religion traditions offer different rules for what constitutes ethical and moral behavior. If ethics and morality could be determined through faith, people of faith would agree on ethics and morals. QED, faith is not a good guide to ethical or moral behavior. I don’t think this argument is valid. If you and I both use calculators to evaluate some arithmetic expression, and we get different answers, does that prove that the value of an arithmetical expression can’t be determined with a calculator? That said, I still don’t know what it means to determine something “through faith.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/50 "2015-06-15T21:32:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That said, I still don’t know what it means to determine something “through faith.” I think it means that, through hours of dedicated praying, you’ve swung your deity around to your way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/51 "2015-06-15T21:56:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How does he know this, especially in matters of ethics and morality? > > Regards, > Shodan Ethics does not need faith. Ethics works by logical arguments. But, how does faith inform moral choices? I can think of two ways: 1. Faith in some code of morality and thus in the author of that code. 2. Faith in a moral statement directly. For 1. **Sage Rat** has already listed a whole bunch of sources of morality. By faith alone, how do you argue yours is superior? I can throw in the Communist Manifesto and the writings if Lenin also. If you start giving logical reasons why the morality inspired by your faith is superior, you have moved into ethics and away from faith. For 2. we can easily believe by faith that murder is wrong, and not have much argument, but we can also believe that eating shellfish is wrong, and get a lot of argument. How do you defend either by faith alone? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/52 "2015-06-15T21:59:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think it means that, through hours of dedicated praying, you’ve swung your deity around to your way of thinking. I owe you a drink. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/53 "2015-06-15T22:00:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That said, I still don’t know what it means to determine something “through faith.” It means “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/54 "2015-06-15T22:20:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Do atheists accept that God wrote it? Generally, no. Generally no? There is no god but he wrote a contradictory Bible? If I hear of an atheist who thinks that God inspired the Bible, I’m going to confiscate his anti-Rapture helmet and expel him from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/55 "2015-06-15T22:22:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Generally no? There is no god but he wrote a contradictory Bible? > If I hear of an atheist who thinks that God inspired the Bible, I’m going to confiscate his anti-Rapture helmet and expel him from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy. Shun him! Excommunicate him! Heathen!! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/56 "2015-06-15T23:19:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Generally no? A general answer is the more reasonable one (especially in the context of the thread at that point). Just one Nutbar exception will prove you wrong if you state “absolutely not”. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/57 "2015-06-15T23:36:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > A general answer is the more reasonable one (especially in the context of the thread at that point). Just one Nutbar exception will prove you wrong if you state “absolutely not”. [Paul Erdős](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s)? 🙂 > [@](#): > > Although an agnostic atheist, he spoke of “The Book”, a visualization of a book in which God had written down the best and most elegant proofs for mathematical theorems. Lecturing in 1985 he said, “You don’t have to believe in God, but you should believe in The Book.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/58 "2015-06-16T05:58:46Z")
Exactly. Definitions should take into account… erm… _statistical outliers_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/59 "2015-06-16T05:59:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > [Paul Erdős](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s)? 🙂 That’s kind of like Einstein talking about God playing dice. Great metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433/60 "2015-06-16T06:49:07Z")
So is an “agnostic atheist” like, some guy in a box and you don’t know if he’s an agnostic or an atheist until the cat dies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/street-epistemology/722433.md?page=4)