Strength increasing, stamina decreasing?

[DSeid]

Okay now that I’ve repeated that conventional wisdom … something I’ve believed for a long time … I’ve actually looked for what the actual research says. And am surprised. Turns out it aint so. (At least according to the studies to date.) From 4/12, concurrent exercise (CE), i.e. both resistance exercise (RE) and aerobic exercise (AE) in the same session, does more with less.

Our study is the first to examine the respective acute effects of RE, AE, and CE on the stimulation of myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein synthesis rates, intramuscular protein signaling, and mRNA expression responses in sedentary middle-aged men. In contrast to our hypotheses of an transcription- and/or signaling-based antagonism between exercise modes, CE resulted in a stimulation of myofibrillar protein synthesis rates that were equivalent to RE, which is notable since this occurred despite the completion of 50% less resistance exercise volume than the RE trial. In addition, in the CE trial RE was followed by 20 min of AE, which has previously been hypothesized to be a confounding stimulus due to “opposing” signaling responses (30, 34). However, our finding is not entirely surprising since as little as three sets of resistance exercise can result in a robust stimulation of myofibrillar protein synthesis rates that are long lasting (8). In the same way, CE promoted a comparable mitochondrial protein synthetic response to AE, again with 50% less aerobic exercise volume. Interestingly, the RE trial also stimulated mitochondrial protein synthesis rates to a degree that was not different from that seen with AE and CE; however, this finding is in agreement with previous data (7, 43). Nonetheless, despite the proposed interference between AE and RE, the current muscle protein subfractional synthetic responses show that CE induced an acute stimulation of both the myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein fractions equivalent to performance of RE or AE alone. Thus the data from the present study indicate that the CE condition induced an equivalent stimulation of both the myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein pools despite a reduced volume compared with each of the isolate RE and AE exercise conditions.

(Bolding mine.)

Here’s a NYT article on the subject.

In other words, “aerobic exercise can precede resistance exercise on the same day without compromising” muscle building, the scientists conclude.

And if you prefer your weight training first, the Canadian study scheduled the resistance work before the bike riding, without compromising the results for either type of exercise.

FWIW.

[treis]

@Mr. Kobayashi

At the moment I’ve been feeling like an RPG character at the gym;

Your analogy of a RPG character with limited points to spend is exactly correct. Your body stores energy as glycogen and fat. Glycogen is the stores that the body uses between meals and for vigorous exercise. Once you deplete your glycogen store, your athletic performance is going to nose dive rapidly. This is what is generally known as “hitting the wall”. Generally speaking, this will happen after 45 min to an hour of exercise.

Your body’s ability to use fat during exercise does improve, but you are never going to get to the point where you can do a vigorous 10km run and then a vigorous lifting session. You basically have two options. (1) Split up your workout into two hour sessions or (2) do half your normal workout in one session.

@DSeid

Okay now that I’ve repeated that conventional wisdom … something I’ve believed for a long time … I’ve actually looked for what the actual research says. And am surprised. Turns out it aint so. (At least according to the studies to date.) From 4/12, concurrent exercise (CE), i.e. both resistance exercise (RE) and aerobic exercise (AE) in the same session, does more with less.(Bolding mine.)

Here’s a NYT article on the subject.FWIW.

If you note, in the studies they either did workouts 6 hours apart or 1/2 of each work out at the same time.

[running_coach]

@treis

Your analogy of a RPG character with limited points to spend is exactly correct. Your body stores energy as glycogen and fat. Glycogen is the stores that the body uses between meals and for vigorous exercise. Once you deplete your glycogen store, your athletic performance is going to nose dive rapidly. **This is what is generally known as “hitting the wall”. Generally speaking, this will happen after 45 min to an hour of exercise. **

Your body’s ability to use fat during exercise does improve, but you are never going to get to the point where you can do a vigorous 10km run and then a vigorous lifting session. You basically have two options. (1) Split up your workout into two hour sessions or (2) do half your normal workout in one session.

If you note, in the studies they either did workouts 6 hours apart or 1/2 of each work out at the same time.

Actually, it’s more like 1.5-2 hours, more in highly trained endurance athletes.
The limiting factor for aerobic workouts of under an hour is oxygen debt, otherwise known as “racing” or “going too hard.”

You’re right about the fat burning though that is one factor that allows runners to not hit the wall while running 2.5-3 hours for a marathon.

[epbrown01]

@runner pat

Actually, it’s more like 1.5-2 hours, more in highly trained endurance athletes.

Isn’t more a case of “it depends on what you’re doing?” The average person’s got 300g of glycogen to work with at the start, which is what, 1200 calories to burn? How long that lasts depends on what you’re doing, and how well-trained your body is (as it gets more efficient, you burn less and so last longer).

Depending on how vigorous his workouts are (minimal rest between sets or exercises), I could see the OP running out of gas pretty quickly.

[running_coach]

@epbrown01

Isn’t more a case of “it depends on what you’re doing?” The average person’s got 300g of glycogen to work with at the start, which is what, 1200 calories to burn? How long that lasts depends on what you’re doing, and how well-trained your body is (as it gets more efficient, you burn less and so last longer).

Depending on how vigorous his workouts are (minimal rest between sets or exercises), I could see the OP running out of gas pretty quickly.

Average is appx. 400 grams(up to 750 grams in a few cases), roughly 16-20 miles of running as at that effort level fat contributes some energy.

60 minutes of all out effort(that is maximal effort possible for 60 min.) is at lactate threshold(tempo pace) If you have full glycogen stores, oxygen debt will stop you before glycogen depletion will. Even a world class runner will cover 13 miles in that hour(more or less).

[tunerX]

It is not in your head it is your muscles telling your head they have had enough, but this is only because you are making your muscles do everything you want to do in a short period of time.

Maybe you should split your session. Cardio in the morning and then weight training at night. You are making your muscles do multiple exertion efforts for many muscle groups within a short time. Build up of lactic acid will increase as your cells use their energy stores so going from beast mode cardio to muscle ripping with little rest will not allow your body to rid itself of the lactic acid. Hydration helps in reducing the amount of lactic acid produced, but not enough to get beast cardio and beast weight training in a 2 hour session. Depending on your level of fitness you can go anywhere from 1 hour to 3 before you have removed the excess lactic acid from your muscles.

If you go beast mode with cardio without a break then your weight training will suffer unless you allow your body to remove the lactic acid. Same goes with going beast mode with weight training then trying to get a great cardio workout.

Lengthen your workouts to include a break for hydration and reduction of lactic acid. Split your workouts to a morning/evening routine. Alternate beast mode activities. Beast cardio one day with some light strength works. Beast strength training with light cardio others.

You can beast cardio and weight training just not in the same session. As you progress you will increase your plateau of how beast you can get with both activities in the same session. But you will always have a plateau.