[QUOTE=threemae]
Look, when you board a plane, an extensive body of federal laws and regulation makes it perfectly clear that some of your normally held rights to travel freely, etc. are curtailed. Like it or not, in no way is it safe to permit people onto a tarmac, and on top of that, most planes don’t have a stairway to let you out safely (unless you want to drop 30 feet) anyway. So, you willingly put yourself at the mercy to some extent of the flight-crew and have to trust in their ability to make prudent decisions about your safety in the operation of that airplane. Do you have a right to be let out of the plane at your whim when it’s airborne? What if you’ve packed a parachute? And do they have to land just because you insist on getting off the ride right now?
Now, I’ve been in a few situations of dicey-weather, boarded a plane knowing I might be in for one of those multi-hour unfortunate episodes, and I did it anyway because I really wanted to get to where I was going. Presumably everyone else that willingly boards a plane in snowy weather makes the same decision. Airlines and pilots are doing their best to get everyone where they want to go in a reasonably timely and safe fashion; sometimes they err towards pushing the envelope for flying in crappy weather, and sometimes they cancel too many flights. But to claim that you’re being “kidnapped” by the airline? Ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
That all seems fine. But surely there is some point at which you *can *demand to be let off the plane, right? Perhaps nine hours isn’t that mark. What about 15?
I hate when non-lawyers try to answer questions like this. Inevitably far more ignorance gets spread than fought. The following is provided as an illustrative example of the sort of half-assed misinformation someone who, like me, is without legal training is likely to spout:
ISTM that this is similar to the questions that get asked all the time about resisting an unlawful arrest or police search. The answer in those situations is that you NEVER win by arguing with a person holding a gun and a badge. Regardless of what the cop tells you to do, you simply state your non-consent and then go along with it. The time and place to fight is after the fact in a courtroom.
I doubt you ever have the right to demand to be let off the plane. For obvious safety reasons, it makes sense for the pilot and crew of an aircraft to have virtually absolute control over the plane. In all matters relating to the operation and safety of the plane and its passengers, the crew’s word is law for those on board. If, after the fact, you can prove that the airline, pilot, or crew acted recklessly, maliciously, negligently, or in contravention of regulations and customary practices and you suffered as a result, you can successfully sue the appropriate parties for damages. But if you try to take things into your own hands, you’re SOL.
Right. Sit still, register a protest (“Miss, I think this isn’t fair and I’d like to state for the record I wish to depart the plane.”), then STFU. Then sue their asses off. Let’s see what happens. We should soon, in fact- there has to be suits filed in some of these recent cases.
Alan Smithee is right- you can only lose by arguing/fighting with the cops during the incident. Register a protest, STFU, then get a good lawyer or contact the ACLU.
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee]
I doubt you ever have the right to demand to be let off the plane. For obvious safety reasons, it makes sense for the pilot and crew of an aircraft to have virtually absolute control over the plane.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed, from what I recall of my private pilot ground school class I took several years back, the Pilot In Command (on an airliner, the Captain), is responsible for anything that happens on his plane, and thus necessarily has nigh-absolute authority for what happens on the plane. Anything bad that happens on the plane, the pilot gets to try and explain to the NTSB and the FAA why it shouldn’t come down on his head. Given the choice between a passenger potentially suffering from being stuck in the plane and the much higher chance of the passenger suffering from going out on the tarmac (see above, re: Injured or arrested, or injured AND arrested), it’s an easy enough choice for the pilot to make on the spot.
At this point you are going to start talking about local laws, but suffice to say that you do not have permission to walk on the tarmac. This may be simply a violation of trespassing laws, or there might be a specific statue against trespassing on an airport.
[QUOTE=Tripler]
It’s not kidnapping–you chose to be there when you bought a ticket.
You booked passage, and agreed to abide by the policies of the airline and the laws and regulations of the FAA. You could try for ‘wrongful’ or ‘“extremely long” imprisonment’, but since you bought a ticket, I don’t think kidnapping’s gonna stand.
Tripler
I’m not a lawyer, but I play one on TV.
[/QUOTE]
No, I chose to be in Detroit 5 hours ago. I didn’t choose to be stuck in an airplane without the airline’s reasonable effort to take me back to the terminal after several hours of waiting.
If I get in a cab and the cabby doesn’t let me leave…it’s not kidnapping? If I put my kid on a bus and the driver decides to take them on a 2 day trip to Washington DC instead of school…That’s not kidnapping?
I recognize the safety issue; so call the police dept, get the fire trucks out there and city buses to take you off and take you back to the station to give a statement.
In December 1991 I and a cow-orker were coming back from Malaysia on a Malysian Airlines 747, London Heathrow was closed to us, so we landed at Manchester.
We counted 17 other 747s and one Concorde parked up - at that time Manchester was a fraction of its current size.
We spent about 7 hours sitting in a tin can on the tarmac, during which time food and drink ran out and the punters were getting restless. Things were not helped by the pilot threatening to throw out anyone who smoked onto the tarmac. Not smart
We were fine, we were on the top deck, with the crew cowering behind us, two reasonably large guys can hold the stairs to the top deck of a 747 pretty easily, especially if they’ve changed back into their business suits and have shining black sturdy business shoes.
Miraculously our zeal was enhanced by the periodic discovery of a small bottle of champagne or a coffee, when it looked as if we were flagging.
Finally a local security guy came on board, took over the tannoy and talked the rabble into being cooperative. To be honest, he was pretty darn good.
When things go wrong on an aircraft, there is no law, well there is just one - the Law of the Jungle - which is why cabin attendants tend to clock competent looking passengers.
[QUOTE=Sigene]
If I get in a cab and the cabby doesn’t let me leave…it’s not kidnapping? If I put my kid on a bus and the driver decides to take them on a 2 day trip to Washington DC instead of school…That’s not kidnapping?
[/QUOTE]
Well, that sort of depends on whether you clearly indicated your acceptance of astandardised, government-approved and universally recognised contract to the effect of “I agree that I and all my goods and chattels will be your bitch in every way for the entire duration of the journey. I furthermore agree that the details of the destination, route, duration and method of journey will be entirely at your discretion, and that if I disobey you in any way whatsoeverI will go to a federal pound-em-in-the-ass correctional facility for a good long time” - which is what happens when you present your boarding card and get on the plane.
It sucks leprous donkey balls, but that’s the way it is. Even the much-mooted passenger charter or whatever will probably only change that by requiring them to use vaseline for the ass-pounding. The fact that even in the US no enterprising ambulance-chaser has succeeded in setting up a class-action on this tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
[QUOTE=tschild]
Another point: Assuming a passenger with checked luggage insists on and succeeds in getting off the plane, wouldn’t the airline need to unload and reload most of the luggage compartment in order to remove his luggage, for obvious security reasons?
[/QUOTE]
In the US, probably not. Bag-matching is not taken terribly seriously here.
I base that opinion on both my own recent experiences flying on different planes than my checked baggage, and this incident earlier this month at Los Angeles International Airport. A US Airways flight to Philadelphia took off carrying within its hold the checked baggage of a passenger who was at that time in a small room being questioned by security regarding suspicious items found, ah, inside a body cavity. The flight was diverted to Las Vegas once this “Whoops!” was discovered, where the plane was evacuated, searched, and declared safe before the flight proceeded on to Philadelphia.
[QUOTE=slaphead]
Well, that sort of depends on whether you clearly indicated your acceptance of astandardised, government-approved and universally recognised contract to the effect of “I agree that I and all my goods and chattels will be your bitch in every way for the entire duration of the journey. I furthermore agree that the details of the destination, route, duration and method of journey will be entirely at your discretion, and that if I disobey you in any way whatsoeverI will go to a federal pound-em-in-the-ass correctional facility for a good long time” - which is what happens when you present your boarding card and get on the plane.
It sucks leprous donkey balls, but that’s the way it is. Even the much-mooted passenger charter or whatever will probably only change that by requiring them to use vaseline for the ass-pounding. The fact that even in the US no enterprising ambulance-chaser has succeeded in setting up a class-action on this tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
[/QUOTE]
Okay; I guess I will accept this then.
I still might call the cops anyway; then I’ll let the cops and airlines decide who as authority over my person.
