# Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665 "2005-03-22T01:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Yamirskoonir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/c0e974/32.png) [@Yamirskoonir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yamirskoonir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/101 "2005-03-23T00:30:49Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > When the piper needs to be paid, they’re whiny little children crying for a second chance, please, please, please, Doctor Ruber, I’ll be good this time, I promise… Haha. Overheard on the last day of class this past quarter in my American Lit Course, as we’re submitting our final papers– **Stupid procrastinating bitch:** “Teacher, can I pleeeze have an extension on the final papers? (The ones that are 25% of our final grade) I had X, Y and Z happen to me and I couldn’t do it…blah blah blah.” \*\*Instructor: \*\*“No.” \*\*SPB, taken aback: \*\*“What do you mean, no?” \*\*Instructor: \*\*“Well, you’ve had over two weeks to complete this assignment, have known about it all quarter as it was laid out in the syllabus, and have had ample time to come to me and work out a soultion/extension based on your circumstances. However, this is the last day of class, and all your classmates have managed to finish on time, presumably while also dealing with X, Y and Z. They are not receiving an extension, so neither are you.” **SPB:** _sputtering_ \*\*Instructor, now my hero: \*\*“Enjoy your Spring Break.” Some other students in my class shared a few other courses with her, and turns out she pulled the same shit in those as well. What really gets me is that she was shocked, _shocked_ when her bullshit story didn’t win her an extension (or sympathy). Welcome to the real world, :wally ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/102 "2005-03-23T00:40:07Z")
Since I am required to note attendance (by NY state), I’m thinking of revising my attendance policy, as follows: 1. I will take attendance every day at the very start of class. 2. If you get here after I call the roll, I’ll cross off your absence, but what will remain of course is the notation that you were late. 3. Attendance and lateness does NOT figure into your final grade in a negative way, BUT 4. missing quizzes, in-class writing, peer-editing sessions, class discussions, etc will of course count as negatives, AND 5. if you need extra credit at the term’s end, the discussion will begin with my looking up your attendance and lateness record. If you were here and on time over 95% of the class meetings, I can cut you a little slack. If not, then not. If I put this or something like it on the syllabus, who’d still have a problem with my taking attendance? ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/103 "2005-03-23T00:54:55Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > The problem, Caphis, (and this may hijack the thread slightly) is that very few students are as mature as they claim, or as they think they are. When you do treat them like adults (warning them on the syllabus, for example, that failure to attend class may deprive them of information they may well need to write their papers properly), a good chunk of them will, late in the term, request some “extra-credit homework” or other baby-shit to compensate for their low grades on the first couple of papers. While I can see how this might become frustrating, I remember plenty of profs who had an “I do not offer extra credit” disclaimer in their syllabus. For the record, I was a dedicated class skipper. I’d attend probably once a week, with the exception being my art classes and editing classes, because they were heavy on in-class activities. I never asked for extra credit from any prof, let alone one who had stated up front they didn’t offer it. I’m with caphis on this one, let 'em sink or swim on their own. There’s a lot of kids in college who really shouldn’t be there, IMO. This would weed them out quite nicely. on preview, I think that’s a very fair policy \*\*prr \*\* ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/104 "2005-03-23T00:58:35Z")
Premature post, sorry. I think that’s a very fair policy if those in class activities are scheduled or announced in advance, so the student knows what they’d be missing on any particular day. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/105 "2005-03-23T01:10:17Z")
> [@belladonna](#): > > Premature post, sorry. > > I think that’s a very fair policy if those in class activities are scheduled or announced in advance, so the student knows what they’d be missing on any particular day. Well, the discussions would be pretty much every class, and the in-class writing tends to derive from the class discussions, making them hard to schedule in advance. I.e., if our discussion has half the class thinking one way and the other half not, I might ask them to summarize the other side’s position in a paragraph or two. If they’re all pretty agreeing, I might skip the writing exercise and get a juimp on the next day’s topic, or open the floor for questions about their upcoming paper. Or I’ll show a film in class, leaving a half-hour to introduce the film while waiting for the VCR to show up (the Ed. Media people are often late)–if the VCR shows up on time, I’ll use the half-hour for a discussion or a few paragraphs of analysis. I don’t see how I can structure the class in advance to assure people when a discussion or a writing exercise is going to be offered. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/106 "2005-03-23T01:52:19Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Holy crap, all of this anger and you never even bothered to give him a syllabus? Yes, he could have asked for one, but if he was doing something that has been bothering you for weeks, couldn’t you have at least said _something_ or handed him a syllabus and said, “You better read this if you want an A in my class…” rather than waiting for this to all come to a head like this? Perhaps he majors outside of your department in something like engineering where nobody cares if he shows up for lecture and this is his upper-division writing credit or something? Why did you have to assume, knowing that he added into your class late, that he would know all of the exceptions to the norms of his college career so far? > > The phrase passive-agressive just keeps popping into my head over and over again. He’s not trying to bully you into “creating his own policies,” he’s trying to take advantage of a policy he thinks exists but doesn’t. You should have brought this up and addressed it before and corrected him of this misconception. Again, I’m not challenging your right to create an attendance policy and enforce it as you see fit, but this guy isn’t doing anything pit-worthy as far as I can tell, and you could have done a lot more yourself. Am I supposed to hold their hands, wipe their noses and clean their tushies too? The class meets once a week. He added in the second week and received a syllabus at that time. Perhaps he chose not to read it. Perhaps he lost it. I don’t know. He never asked for another one. Back to the college catalog we go: \*\* It is the _student’s responsibility_ to know the attendance policies in the class.\*\* Perhaps he made some assumptions. That wasn’t such a good idea. And why in the holy hell did he wait until March to mention his religious duties? The class started in January. If he had said something earlier, I would have told him that he had created a scheduling conflict for himself. He never mentioned the If he’s so convinced that there is an immunity policy protecting him, then he needs to bring it in. And again, why did he wait until March to say anything about it? Assumptions, assumptions. If this guy claims to be ready to transfer, then he’s obviously been in college for a while. Don’t you think that by now he would have learned a thing or two about the way things operate? That’s what makes me suspect that he’s pulled this stuff in the past and gotten away with it. ## As for his writing, well, I have a number of good writers–some better than he is. But they don’t demand favors, and I don’t treat them any differently than anyone else. ## **Creative\_Munster** : English. Many students these days are coddled at home, then in K-12 and want the coddling to continue in college. It’s a nasty wake-up call for them. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/107 "2005-03-23T02:06:15Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > Well, which is it? Are these adults or not? If you want all of the advantages of not being fully responsible, go for it…but then don’t be offended when you’re treated like a child. > > The student received a syllabus at the beginning of semester…copies were available if he’d lost his. No reason for the OP to have to babysit him to the detriment of her efforts toward the other students. No, he didn’t receive a syllabus at the start of the semester, he was a late adder and missed out on the first day of class which likely could have covered such topics. Knowing this, I think it would be reasonable to at least tell a student to look at their syllabus if they started showing up late on a consistent basis and it was in the syllabus that this would effectively lower their grade. Given that this student may come from a major such as engineering where attendance is not at all on a premium, I don’t think it’s reasonable to simply assume that this person will be fully knowledgable of this department’s set of rules. For example, what if, clearly stated in the syllabus, at the top of the page in 60 point font, “Failure to wear green shirts to class will result in a 10 point grade penalty for each offense.” As in this case, the student adds-into the class one week class, and shows up in a red shirt. And why shouldn’t he? In the last five semesters of his University career in the engineering department, nobody gives a damn about whether he shows up in a red, green, blue, orange, or yellow shirt because that would be a stupid, pointless rule. For the next six weeks the student shows up in every color but green and ends up with a D+ at the mid-term. Thinking that he has been doing A work the entire term he’s understandably upset and perhaps even gives (horror of horrors) some _DIRTY LOOKS!!!_ Why should the prof come whining onto the SDMB about all these stupid undergrads when a simple comment about the syllabus or about the shirt policy itself could have averted this issue? Yes, she can set the rules that way if she wants, but there’s really nothing to be gained by the way she dealt with the situation. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/108 "2005-03-23T02:18:25Z")
My college didn’t have any attendance policy. I don’t recall taking any classes that had one either. Yes, I did skip a few, but I wasn’t nearly as bad as some students who would miss a month at a time and then show up for the last few weeks before exams. A lot of those students were pains in the ass. They’d ask questions that were answered in previous classes. They’d start up discussions we’d already had. They’d monopolize the professors’ office hours in their last ditch frenzy to make up a month of work. Sure, good professors could avoid letting those students become disruptive, and it is the professor’s responsibility to do so. However, not all my professors were good at that. For those of us stuck with one not assertive or skilled enough to avoid having a class hijacked by some panicky class skipper, an attendance policy has benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/109 "2005-03-23T02:58:19Z")
**eponymous** wrote > [@](#): > > 1. Often instructors are required, either via policy established by the college administration or mandated via state/federal law to take attendence (especially with regards to financial aid). Often this requirement is explicitly stated in the course syllabus (either attendence is mandatory and will be kept or that attendence is kept in order to satisify financial aid reporting). So those that have issues regarding attendence policies should direct their ire towards the institutions administrators, not the instructors. Likewise, similar ire should be directed towards those in the state/federal legislative bodies that mandate by law keeping attendence records, especially for purposes of financial aid. Irrelevant and mis-leading. There was no law by government or policy by the school mandating that our favorite OP do grading based on attendance. > [@](#): > > 1. Whether or not this attendence policy has any bearing on a student’s grade varies from institution to institution. Where I teach, we are not allowed to determine a student’s grade (or a portion of a student’s grade) based on attendence alone. However, we are allowed to determine a student’s grade based on work that is done in a classroom. And if a student isn’t in class on a day when a particular assignment/activity is done, then it is within the instructor’s perview to penalize the student for not doing that particular assignment/activity in class. This is absolutely true. Teachers should have tests, quizzes, peer reviews, and any number of other things that are required and are done in class. And these things should affect the grade. But… that’s very different from mandating that someone be in the class room every day to hear lectures or whatever the teacher decides to do that day. > [@](#): > > 1. With the above scenario (in my case) - this information is explicitly spelled out in the course syllabus, and one in which I go over the first day of class (I’ve even gone so far as to have an actual assignment based on the students having read the syllabus in the hopes that all the students are clear regarding the information set forth therein). It is also explicitly spelled out in the syllabus important due dates with respect to assignments, exams, papers, etc. and that if this conflicts with a students schedule in some fashion to inform me immediately of any conflicts so as to accomodate the student as much as possible. If a student feels that my attendence policy is too dictatorial/too restrictive, then he/she is free to drop the course. Absolutely. A student should know ahead of time when work will be required, both in class and out, and if they have a problem with that they should not take the class. But again… That’s different from mandating that someone show up every day not to do an assignment, not to take a test, but for the exclusive purpose of marvelling at you, their most prized mentor. > [@](#): > > 1. Experience has shown that a student who attends class on a regular basis does better than a student who doesn’t. So there is a sound for reason for why some institutions require mandatory attendence, or why instructors require attendence. It’s not that we are trying to stroke our egos or demonstrate our dictatorial tendencies (however it may appear to many to be); but rather to provide a framework within which as many students as possible can do well. Absolutely. Students who show up more are statistically more likely to do better for a couple reasons. a) because they are more interested in the material, and b) because they will actually learn something when they’re there. But just because the student who spends more time in class is likely to learn more does not mean that a given student who does not spend time in class will not learn what’s required. Many students don’t need every lecture to learn the material. But more importantly: if a student doesn’t learn the material, there is a consequence, a bad grade. It’s a students responsiblity to learn the material. Going to class is not what should be graded. Learning the material is. > [@](#): > > 1. Having a strict attendence policy (and basing a portion of a student’s grade on that attendence), believe it or not, provides students a level of accountability (or rather those entities that are footing the students bill for attending college - parents or the government). If you were a parent and wanted to send your kid to college, which institution do you think cares more about wanting your kid to succeed - institution A that doesn’t have an attendence policy or instructor’s not caring whether your kid comes to class our not; or institution B, which has a stated attendence policy or instructor’s who force students to attend their courses? Johnny or Suzie BMOC may prefer A over B, but parents may prefer B over A. As least institution B has some level of accountability in ensuring that their kid is attending class and not doing something else. a) I’ve never heard of a school having one of their selling points being “we grade on whether your child shows up at class or not”. b) I don’t think 1 person in 10 could name a school that actually has such a policy. c) If such a thing were true, I wouldn’t use it as criteria in choosing a school for my child. All of which means that this is not a valid point. I can tell you which schools I’d like to send my child to, and why. Academically excellent schools make it a point to be known as academically excellent. Schools that offer excellent programs in various areas make it a point to be known as such. If this point you’re making were actually true, schools would make it a point to brag that they grade based on attendance, and parents would seek out such schools. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think mandatory attendence policies are silly. I would love not having to keep attendence for any reason. But my institution requires that I do so. Keeping attendence and grading on it are two different things. > [@](#): > > I also am not personally found of basing a portion of a students grade on attendence (as I mentioned above, we’re not allowed based on attendence alone). But time and time again, I find that those students who do not attend class on a regular basis do not do well. So to rectify the situation, my course is structured in such a way that a portion of a student’s grade is based on some assignments/acitivities done in class. This way, I can at reach some of those who might normally “blow-off” class anyway and thus improve their chances of doing well in the course. This is good. But again, different from the topic at hand. And by the way, for those that don’t regularly read my spoutings, I’m someone who’s pretty consistently on the side of the establishment. If you have a student who disrupts your class, I’m on your side. If you have a student who doesn’t do his assignments or try his best, I’m on your side. But knocking a student’s grade because he was late for class is petty. And petty for the express and sole purpose of the teacher exerting dominance in her little fiefdom. And that’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/110 "2005-03-23T04:05:50Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > But… that’s very different from mandating that someone be in the class room every day to hear lectures or whatever the teacher decides to do that day. > > \ > > But again… That’s different from mandating that someone show up every day not to do an assignment, not to take a test, but for the exclusive purpose of marvelling at you, their most prized mentor. Another idiot who apparently is too thick to understand that attendance is not required simply to boost the teacher’s ego or to listen to a lecture. If you’d paid the least bit of attention to what’s been going on in this thread, you would know that attendance is generally not mandatory for large lecture classes, even in the humanities. And when attendance is required, it is generally not merely a procedural thing designed to make sure students are where they should be. It is also a key part of the academic requirements; not just a means to an end, but a significant reason in and of itself. I can’t believe that some people’s concept of education is so narrow and thickheaded that they believe intellectual performance should only be measured things like tests. You say that > [@Bill H.](#): > > Teachers should have tests, quizzes, peer reviews, and any number of other things that are required and are done in class. And these things should affect the grade. Well, news flash for you dickhead: in many, and probably most, humanities classes, regular participation in class discussion is included among the “number of other things that are required and are done is class.” In some classes this part of the student’s performance is worth 10, 20 even 40 percent of the final grade. That is why attendance is mandatory; not just so the student can listen to the teacher talk, but because the student should make his or her own contribution to every lesson. You can continue to try and convince yourself that teachers only set attendance policies to suit their own egos, but you’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/111 "2005-03-23T04:28:35Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > The problem, Caphis, (and this may hijack the thread slightly) is that very few students are as mature as they claim, or as they think they are. When you do treat them like adults (warning them on the syllabus, for example, that failure to attend class may deprive them of information they may well need to write their papers properly), a good chunk of them will, late in the term, request some “extra-credit homework” or other baby-shit to compensate for their low grades on the first couple of papers. That’s one I find annoying, too – the “late-term-extra-credit” request. For my classes, it typically comes from students who didn’t **DO** one or more of their previous assignments. And they are hoping for an extra credit assignment to make up for it. And I give a few extra credit opportunities already ON the existing assignments (usually a chance for a few bonus points, for extra features in a programming assignment) and on tests. But no full extra credit assignments. I’m not interested in adding that much to MY workload – having to create a brand new assignment for one person, to make up for the program that they didn’t bother to write earlier in the term. On another note, regarding the whiny ones… I’ve found that “trying to be nice”, like with deadlines, has backfired on me before. One term I had an assignment that would be due the last day of classes (before exam week), and I decided to be “nice” and give them a few extra days – told them they could turn it in on the Tuesday of exam week if they wanted. Two students went to my department chair and complained, “He’s making us do homework during exam week!!!” Well, I explained that it was “extra time” to the chair. But no more “extra time” from me… ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/112 "2005-03-23T05:21:06Z")
**mhendo** wrote > [@](#): > > [A whole bunch of nonsense and also] > Another idiot who apparently is too thick to understand (blah blah) > If you’d paid the least bit of attention (blah blah) > narrow and thickheaded (blah blah) > Well, news flash for you dickhead: (blah blah) > you’re full of shit. How can I top such skills of persuasion? Next lifetime, you may find daddy’s college money will be less wasted spent on crack. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/113 "2005-03-23T05:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > in many, and probably most, humanities classes, regular participation in class discussion is included among the “number of other things that are required and are done is class.” How is this relevant? If there is regular class discussion, then an easy solution would be to take points off for not participating in that class discussion. On the other hand, if, as was the case in a few of my gen ed classes, there is no class participation, why should one have extra points taken off of the grade they earned based on their assignments? I can’t really come to a conclusion about the student mentioned in the OP, because I don’t know if he really thought the school would care about his religious responsibilities. If he did, and especially since this seems to be a gen ed class which probably has nothing to do with his major, I can see why he would be upset. On the other hand, he could be making it up as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/114 "2005-03-23T06:08:16Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > **mhendo** wrote > How can I top such skills of persuasion? Next lifetime, you may find daddy’s college money will be less wasted spent on crack. Don’t hate me for your stupidity. And my parents did not fund my college education. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/115 "2005-03-23T06:18:27Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > How is this relevant? If there is regular class discussion, then an easy solution would be to take points off for not participating in that class discussion. Because, much as this might surprise you, actually being in the classroom is a necessary condition for participating in class discussion. > [@Nightime](#): > > On the other hand, if, as was the case in a few of my gen ed classes, there is no class participation, why should one have extra points taken off of the grade they earned based on their assignments? But this wasn’t one of your gen ed classes. > [@Nightime](#): > > I can’t really come to a conclusion about the student mentioned in the OP, because I don’t know if he really thought the school would care about his religious responsibilities. If he did, and especially since this seems to be a gen ed class which probably has nothing to do with his major, I can see why he would be upset. On the other hand, he could be making it up as far as I know. Well, if he really thought the school was going to allow him to miss a sizeable portion of the class _every week_, then he’s stupid. And if he can’t schedule his classes around his extra-curricular activities, then he’s disorganized or a bit thick. And so what if the class has nothing to do with his major? Universities require Gen Ed and other non-major classes for a reason, and the reason is not simply to give whining simpletons something to complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/116 "2005-03-23T06:26:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Because, much as this might surprise you, actually being in the classroom is a necessary condition for participating in class discussion. I’m detecting a hostile tone in your post. Security! Take this man away! Since you failed to read this part of my post, I’ll repeat it: If there is regular class discussion, then an easy solution would be to take points off for not participating in that class discussion. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/117 "2005-03-23T06:32:58Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > I’m detecting a hostile tone in your post. Security! Take this man away! > > Since you failed to read this part of my post, I’ll repeat it: > > If there is regular class discussion, then an easy solution would be to take points off for not participating in that class discussion. No, i read it. What you apparently fail to understand is that not only is participation graded, but it is, in many instances, a _required_ part of the course. Failing to complete a required part of the course, in some schools and departments, is grounds for failing the whole course. For example, the final exam might only be worth 25% of your grade, but missing the final exam does not just reduce your maximum possible grade by 25%. Missing the final exam means you cannot pass the course because you have failed to complete a key requirement of the course. Same for class participation (hence attendance), at least in some courses. I’ve got a solution for those who complain about compulsory attendance, and who believe they are just as well served by reading their books at home. Why don’t you just go and get the books, read them, and thne go tell you prospective employer that you’ve done the work? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/118 "2005-03-23T06:43:28Z")
> [@](#): > > No, i read it. Which part of it is so hard for you to understand? “If there is regular class discussion, then an easy solution would be to take points off for not participating in that class discussion.” Your responses indicate that while you have read this, you are far from having comprehended its simple meaning. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/119 "2005-03-23T07:25:32Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > But again… That’s different from mandating that someone show up every day not to do an assignment, not to take a test, but for the exclusive purpose of marvelling at you, their most prized mentor. I love being put in the position of arguing that I’m _not_ an pretentious asshole. Students practice speaking Spanish in my class. I am not a pedant. I rarely pontificate, and when I do it’s on bizarre trivia like why the preterite is so irregular, and how the ‘ñ’ developed. You don’t come to class, you don’t get to speak or hear Spanish, and while there are those that are just interested in a reading knowledge (like me and my Latin and French) a lot of my students hope to travel, to communicate with the Spanish-speaking members of the community, and to use their Spanish to help them get the job they want. And since most of them can’t conjugate the imperfect subjunctive off the top of their head, class provides a space to practice and learn, with me to help. The class is not passive; they talk and ask questions, and as I frequently remind them, talking is great, since it means you don’t have to listen to me go over the information they need. I personally don’t really like straight lecturing - it’s really boring. If I do need to go into an extended monologue (~5 min or so), I will try to get them to contribute what they know about a subject, and build off of it. My students receive a grade on attendance (they get so many absences, then it starts counting, and they can use those absences for whatever they damn well please without justification to me, and I tell them so) and participation (do you actually raise your hand on occasion or just sit and do the crossword?). Is it picky? Hell yes. It is not easy to get an ‘A’ in my class - you have to do the homework, come to class, contribute, write papers, etc. Like most any other class, having knowledge isn’t enough; you also have to comply with the rules, which aren’t necessarily a complimentary fit for every student. I understand that; I’ve had brilliant friends who earned stinky grades in classes that required attendance, participation, etc. But I’m definitely of the school that your education is your priority: **I will do my best to help you learn** , but ultimately, it is yours to guide as you best see fit. Not everyone learns in a regimented class system - so, you work around it. I took summer school classes at the community college to knock out my math requirement - it had a much more leinient system, and as long as I passed the class, it fulfilled the requirement. You search out the professors that work and teach in ways you can understand, and you take classes with them. And when you get the prof that’s so smart he can’t communicate anymore, you look to your peers and section leaders to help you through, and have a good stiff drink-and-bitch session after the test. All of this is on my syllabus, my webpage, and will be repeated time and again during the class. If you come to class, make an effort to do your work (not the same as doing it perfectly), and ask me questions, I will bend over backwards for you - meet with you one-on-one, give you extra practice, lend you other material I’ve found helpful, etc. But if you want to sit in the corner and glower, make no effort to speak Spanish and never ask for any help, that’s fine, too. It’s your choice, and when you realize its consequences (about now in the semester), you’re on your own. A side note - didn’t **viva** say her class meets once a week for several hours? In that case, missing a class is like missing a whole week, and that’s a lot of material to cover. Oh yeah, I DON’T get paid by tuition either, so stop saying that all instructors do. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665/120 "2005-03-23T08:51:10Z")
**aurelian** wrote > [@](#): > > I love being put in the position of arguing that I’m not an pretentious asshole. In hindsight, I regret the “marvelling at you, their most prized mentor” comment. Sorry about that. > [@](#): > > Students practice speaking Spanish in my class. I am not a pedant. I rarely pontificate, and when I do it’s on bizarre trivia like why the preterite is so irregular, and how the ‘ñ’ developed. You don’t come to class, you don’t get to speak or hear Spanish, and while there are those that are just interested in a reading knowledge (like me and my Latin and French) a lot of my students hope to travel, to communicate with the Spanish-speaking members of the community, and to use their Spanish to help them get the job they want. And since most of them can’t conjugate the imperfect subjunctive off the top of their head, class provides a space to practice and learn, with me to help. The class is not passive; they talk and ask questions, and as I frequently remind them, talking is great, since it means you don’t have to listen to me go over the information they need. The value of being in class is clear, especially your class and your subject where the environment is active. Learning to speak Spanish can never be done exclusively by reading a book or even listening to a lecture; active participation is required. But that doesn’t invalidate my point. Just because students could get enormous value from being at your class doesn’t mean they should be knocked if they show up late. If students take your oral examinations or other active assignments and pass them, they shouldn’t be knocked because they were tardy. > [@](#): > > My students receive a grade on attendance (they get so many absences, then it starts counting, and they can use those absences for whatever they damn well please without justification to me, and I tell them so) and participation (do you actually raise your hand on occasion or just sit and do the crossword?). Grading based on participation is a gray area for me. I see the value of encouraging participation for the class in general (a more active class will be one where more is learned). But getting bonus points just for raising your hand is akin to getting an automatic C just for showing up to take a test. > [@](#): > > Is it picky? Hell yes. It is not easy to get an ‘A’ in my class - you have to do the homework, come to class, contribute, write papers, etc. Like most any other class, having knowledge isn’t enough; you also have to comply with the rules, which aren’t necessarily a complimentary fit for every student. I understand that; I’ve had brilliant friends who earned stinky grades in classes that required attendance, participation, etc. I was with you up until the “brilliant friends with stinky grades part”. I just don’t see how you can rationalize giving someone a bad grade when you feel they’ve learned the material. It seems so cut and dried to me: you go to school to learn, and you’re graded on how well you learn. > [@](#): > > But I’m definitely of the school that your education is your priority: I will do my best to help you learn, but ultimately, it is yours to guide as you best see fit. I certainly agree. > [@](#): > > All of this is on my syllabus, my webpage, and will be repeated time and again during the class. That’s good. I don’t feel that was the case in our favorite OP’s situation. In fact, my read is that the “bully” never got a syllabus and the teacher made no effort to get him one or let him know of how he was not living up to her expectations until it was too late for him to remedy. Now, as she points out, it’s the student’s responsibility to get and understand the rules. I agree with that. I just don’t think the rules were just or in line with what should’ve been the primary goal: delivering high-quality education and judging how well it was internalized. > [@](#): > > A side note - didn’t viva say her class meets once a week for several hours? In that case, missing a class is like missing a whole week, and that’s a lot of material to cover. Yes, but that should be his problem, a problem that’s reflected in a poor grade when he doesn’t do well tests and assignments. If in fact he does do well in his assignments, there shouldn’t be an issue. > [@](#): > > Oh yeah, I DON’T get paid by tuition either, so stop saying that all instructors do. Are you volunteer? Good for you if you are; the world can use more of that. But if you’re paid, I argue that you’re paid to accomplish a specific task, namely deliver a quality service to your charges. If they choose not to drink, it’s their loss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-attempts-to-bully-me-attempt-fails/295665.md?page=7)