Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

[eponymous]

@treis

If attendance is such a good way to test people why exactly does it normally constitute no more than 5% of my grade?

The fact is that discussion is a pretty piss poor way of grading someone. I would wager that in a class of 25 people that the professor could not tell me one point that each student made during a discussion 5 weeks ago. What exactly are professors grading on then? Again I would wager that for a discussion grade unless they have some elaborate system it is merely their impression of that student. Ask them to point to a specific argument a student made that led to this impression and I doubt they could answer.

Contrast that with a written essay test. A professor can re-read an essay as many times as is needed to accurately assess a students knowledge. He can point to specific reasoning and examples from the students essay to justify a grade. I can go to a professor and ask why I got a C+ instead of a B on an essay and he can say well you mentioned X,Y and Z but you left out an important point in Q plus point R was inaccurate.

Depends on the course - it could be more. But more importantly, evaluating someone on something such as class participation may be more subjective than a multiple-choice or written essay exam. In other words, class attendence/participation is but one way in which to evaluate students - and it often helps instrutors make difficult decisions in evaluating students who are borderline.

In other words, if 95% of a student’s grade is based on some objective evaluation (multiple choice exams, written assignments, etc.) and that student’s grade at the end of the term is on the borderline (say between a C+ and a B-), but that student hasn’t attended class on a regular basis nor participated in any meaningful way, then I’m more likely to give the student a C+ rather than a B-.
Conversely, someone who has been attending class on a regular basis and has participated in a meaningful way makes it easier to justify awarding the borderline students a B- rather than a C+.

Now, you may claim - so what? If I know the material, then it shouldn’t matter whether I’ve attended or participated. Then how does one justify awarding a B+ to both students, given that the other student did attend class on a regular basis and participated in some way? What do I tell that student who has shown the initiative and ability to contribute to his/her knowledge of the topic/subject?
Tough luck?

What if I know that that student doesn’t necessarily do well on objective types of evaluations (written exams), but does do well in demonstrating their grasp of the subject matter in classroom discussion formats? Do I discount this ability altogether? Whether you realize it or not, some students show different aptitudes for demonstrating there grasp of the material in different ways (their are distinct learning styles). Instructors are aware of this and try to account for it(admittedly, not to everyone’s satisfaction, including the instructors).

Clearly the written test is a much more accurate and reliable method of assessing a students knowledge of the material. If the purpose of grading students is to assess their knowledge why not use the much more accurate method?

See above - a written test isn’t necessarily a more reliable (or accurate) indicator in all instances. If you test well on written exams, but I ask you point-blank questions in class about something I’ve just covered and you reply with “I don’t know” or some other reponse that clearly demostrates you have not learned anything, which of the two is the real indicator of your knowledge of the subject?

Now reverse the scenario (student tests poorly, but when asked point-blank questions about the topic, the student knows the material and clearly grasps what has just been conveyed). Which of the two is the real indicator for the student’s knowledge of the subject?

Example: You get a perfect score on your written exam to get your driver’s license, but do poorly on the driver portion. Which is a more accurate assement of one’s knowledge/ability to drive? Now reverse the two. Admittedly, one’s ability to drive is most important. But you won’t even be able to take the driver’s portion if you don’t pass the written exam. One needs to do well on both get a driver’s license.

In the first case, your grade may be downgraded a bit, based upon your good tests scores, but lousy responses in class (“good objective test taker, lousy when asked point-blank questions on a topic”); in the second case, the student’s score may be upgraded a bit (“so-so objective test taker, but does really well when asked pointed questions about subject in class”.)

There’s already a built in bias towards those that do well on written/objective types of exams versus other methods (direct questioning, discussion, etc.). Class participation being only 5% of one’s final grade is already telling you how much weight is given to that element. That small amount is probably used to account for borderline grade cases.

Also, just because you may do well on objective/written type of tests, doesn’t necessarily mean you do well on other types. And class attendence/participation as part of one’s grade does try (admittedly, not perfectly) to account for this. And that’s why some instructor’s may give it a higher weight (say, 25% of your grade).

[treis]

@eponymous

In other words, if 95% of a student’s grade is based on some objective evaluation (multiple choice exams, written assignments, etc.) and that student’s grade at the end of the term is on the borderline (say between a C+ and a B-), but that student hasn’t attended class on a regular basis nor participated in any meaningful way, then I’m more likely to give the student a C+ rather than a B-.
Conversely, someone who has been attending class on a regular basis and has participated in a meaningful way makes it easier to justify awarding the borderline students a B- rather than a C+.

I can see your point but my opinion on the matter is that you really ought not bump anyones grade up. Certainly if there are extraordinary circumstances the person that attends class and demonstrats some knowledge in the course of class discussion will get the benefit of the doubt versus the one that doesn’t. I don’t really have a problem with this but I do have a problem if the sole reason you are bumping them up a grade is becuase they came to class. For example if someone did poorly on a test and they came to you and said I was sick that day or something. If you know that student did underperform then bump him up a bit but that is merely a benefit of coming to class not a reason to base a grade on it.

@eponymous

Now, you may claim - so what? If I know the material, then it shouldn’t matter whether I’ve attended or participated. Then how does one justify awarding a B+ to both students, given that the other student did attend class on a regular basis and participated in some way? What do I tell that student who has shown the initiative and ability to contribute to his/her knowledge of the topic/subject?
Tough luck?

The grade is a reflection on how well you have learned the material. I am sorry you did not do as well as you liked. If you feel that you put as much effort in as you can and this is not an acceptable grade than perhaps you need to rethink your expectations. If the student failed in this case than that student can try again or might have to think of alternate career options.

@eponymous

What if I know that that student doesn’t necessarily do well on objective types of evaluations (written exams), but does do well in demonstrating their grasp of the subject matter in classroom discussion formats? Do I discount this ability altogether? Whether you realize it or not, some students show different aptitudes for demonstrating there grasp of the material in different ways (their are distinct learning styles). Instructors are aware of this and try to account for it(admittedly, not to everyone’s satisfaction, including the instructors).

If that students writing abilities are not up to snuff then that student needs to get in an appropriate english class. Being able to communicate your ideas in a written format is a fundamental skill that is both learned and needed in college. Any course that is a discussion format is most likely beyond the 100 level for that department. A student has ample time to improve his writing skills by the time they move onto higher level courses. If for some reason the student can’t improve his writing then again an alternate career might be in order.

@eponymous

See above - a written test isn’t necessarily a more reliable (or accurate) indicator in all instances. If you test well on written exams, but I ask you point-blank questions in class about something I’ve just covered and you reply with “I don’t know” or some other reponse that clearly demostrates you have not learned anything, which of the two is the real indicator of your knowledge of the subject?

Well if you can answer a written question but can not answer that same question given orally there is some major learning disability going on here. If I just took a test where a question was “Who was the first president?” and got it correct then I see no reason I couldn’t answer if you asked me orally. Similiarly if I answer correctly when asked orally there is no reason I should not be able to respond correctly to a written question.

@eponymous

Now reverse the scenario (student tests poorly, but when asked point-blank questions about the topic, the student knows the material and clearly grasps what has just been conveyed). Which of the two is the real indicator for the student’s knowledge of the subject?

My answer is that if a student clearly grasps what has been conveyed yet can not correctly answer that question in a written format than there is something extraordinary going on here.

@eponymous

Example: You get a perfect score on your written exam to get your driver’s license, but do poorly on the driver portion. Which is a more accurate assement of one’s knowledge/ability to drive? Now reverse the two. Admittedly, one’s ability to drive is most important. But you won’t even be able to take the driver’s portion if you don’t pass the written exam. One needs to do well on both get a driver’s license.

That is becuase you need to be skilled in driving and know the rules of the road. Unless you are teaching debate the situation does not apply to college.

@eponymous

In the first case, your grade may be downgraded a bit, based upon your good tests scores, but lousy responses in class (“good objective test taker, lousy when asked point-blank questions on a topic”); in the second case, the student’s score may be upgraded a bit (“so-so objective test taker, but does really well when asked pointed questions about subject in class”.)

Which question allows for greater depth?

On a written exam I can have up to a couple of hours to respond to your prompt. In a discussion based setting my answer should be on the order of 30-60 seconds. I require a much wider breadth of knowledge on the written exam compared to the discussion.

For example if the discussion was about abortion the knowledge required to give a 30 second blurb is much less than a full scale written response. In my written response I can point to multiple specific examples from the ruling and build my argument clearly showing that I have a firm grasp of the subject. I can most likely bullshit my way through a discussion from rudimentary knowledge of the case. Raising my hand when I can make an intelligent comment and hiding when I can’t. You may think I have a deep knowledge of the case becuase I answered multiple questions but that may be all I know.

@eponymous

There’s already a built in bias towards those that do well on written/objective types of exams versus other methods (direct questioning, discussion, etc.). Class participation being only 5% of one’s final grade is already telling you how much weight is given to that element. That small amount is probably used to account for borderline grade cases.

Why not alot say 10 minutes for each student during a written exam to give an oral examination? Then you can be concentrating on what the student is saying instead of concentrating on leading a discussion. You can take notes or record the exam if you need to go back and reconsider a grade. You are a professor (I think) can you think of multiple examples of intelligent arguments that your students made throughout the semester? If not how can you accurately grade them?

The other problem with a discussion grade is that the discussion is the time that the students are learning the material. It is not fair to expect them to learn the material in the 10 seconds between the time you introduced it and the question you asked. Let the students study and prepare for an exam then test their knowledge.

@eponymous

Also, just because you may do well on objective/written type of tests, doesn’t necessarily mean you do well on other types. And class attendence/participation as part of one’s grade does try (admittedly, not perfectly) to account for this. And that’s why some instructor’s may give it a higher weight (say, 25% of your grade).

Effectively communicating ideas through writing is something that every humanities major needs. Just as your engineer needs to be able to draw a diagram, your mathematecian write a proof or your chemist perform a chemical reaction. It is an inherent skill that students need to be tested on. What good is a philosopher that can not write his ideas down? How famous would Kant or Voltaire be if they couldn’t communicate their ideas through writing?

My main argument boils down to that discussion and attendence are not accurate ways of measuring a students knowledge. If a student doesn’t go to class and does well on the tests or in ** vivalostwages’ ** case gets As/Bs on papers then there is little to no reason for that student to attend. Certainly it will be beneficial for him to do so but that is his choice. To me a written test is more accurate and thus better than attendance/discussion grade in nearly every case I can think of.

[zut]

@pseudotriton ruber ruber

Businesses are not our customers, nor are students, nor is the government. If I were pressed I would concede only that “society” is our customer, and we can’t favor one segment of society above the others. Do you suppose I teach students to write because business demands writing skill? If that were so, I’d demand a hell of a bigger salary because I’m providing a vital skill that business would be crippled without. No, I’m teaching students how to write because they need that skill, business needs that skill, government needs a citizenry able to express itself, the teaching profession needs future teachers, etc.

I don’t see how you can, on the one hand, simply say that businesses, students, etc are not your customers, and on the other quite rightly explain that you’re teaching because of the needs of businesses, students, etc. Those views are contradictory. Is it just the label “customer” that you object to? Because otherwise I’m not exactly certain what your point of view is. How about I use the word “stakeholder” instead?

You’re right – you’re teaching because students need to know how to write. That makes them your stakeholders. If they don’t think your institution is doing a good job, they’ll enroll somewhere else, or send their kids somewhere else.

And you’re teaching because businesses want to hire graduates that can write. That makes them your stakeholders. If they don’t think your institution is doing a good job, they’ll hire employees from somewhere else.

And you’re teaching because the government wants a citizenry able to express itself. That makes them your stakeholders. If they don’t think your institution is doing a good job, they’ll take their public money and invest it somewhere else.

And you’re teaching because the teaching profession needs future teachers that can write well and express themselves. That makes them your stakeholders. If they don’t think your institution is doing a good job, they’ll hire teachers from somewhere else.

The day I feel that the government is able to prevent me from teaching ANTIGONE, with all its anti-authoritarian values, or business is able to curtail my teaching ALL MY SONS, with its underlying anti-capitalist message, or students are able to force me to stop teaching grammar because it’s not relevant to them, is the day I quit teaching.

All these voices can be heard. But we will listen only to those voices that make sense to us, and make the decisions that we think finally serve our real customers–the whole society–best.

Recognizing that you have “customers” for your services (or “stakeholders” if you prefer) does not mean that you’re giving the customers carte blanche to alter everything you do. [I realize some other people in theis thread are saying that, but those people ain’t me.]

Analogy: If I buy a car, I look at the gas mileage, and the head room, and the overall reliability, and the styling, and a number of other things. If I buy a car or two, and I’m unhappy with, say, the reliability, I might even drop the manufacturer a note: “Hey, I love my new car, but could you look into improving reliability? Otherwise I might rethink my next purchase.” And it would be up to the manufacturer whether or not to act on my wishes. But what I’m not going to do is walk into the manufacturer’s office and start demanding that the machines on the factory floor be repositioned, and the type of plastic used in the air vents be changed, and the worker’s lunch breaks be staggered in a different way. Why should I? And, more importantly, why would I expect that my demands would result in a better product?

And in the same way, if I hire a graduate, I would look at a number of skills: their ability to summarize a complex argument, to concisely present a position, to speak publically, and a number of other things. If I hire a graduate or two, and I’m unhappy with, say, their public speaking skills, I might even drop the University a note: “Hey, I love my new employee, but could you look into improving public speaking skills? Otherwise I might rethink my next hire.” And it would be up to the University whether or not to act on my wishes. But what I’m not going to do is walk into the classroom and start demanding that ANTIGONE be dropped from the curriculum, and there be two midterms instead of one, and attendance never be taken in any class. Why should I? And, more importantly, why would I expect that my demands would result in a better graduate?

[treis]

@zut

And you’re teaching because the teaching profession needs future teachers that can write well and express themselves. That makes them your stakeholders. If they don’t think your institution is doing a good job, they’ll hire teachers from somewhere else.Recognizing that you have “customers” for your services (or “stakeholders” if you prefer) does not mean that you’re giving the customers carte blanche to alter everything you do. [I realize some other people in theis thread are saying that, but those people ain’t me.]

I don’t think anyone is saying that rather that argument is a strawman that has been constructed.

[dropzone]

@pseudotriton ruber ruber

Therefore: Asswipe. Hypocrite. Moron. Phony. Liar. You suck diseased moose cock, Bill H.

Don’t let him get to you. He’s never spoken like a REAL successful businessman so I wouldn’t be surprised (though I am not making an actual accusation) if his company and employees exist solely in his head.

[Yeticus_Rex]

@treis

The fact is that discussion is a pretty piss poor way of grading someone. I would wager that in a class of 25 people that the professor could not tell me one point that each student made during a discussion 5 weeks ago. What exactly are professors grading on then? Again I would wager that for a discussion grade unless they have some elaborate system it is merely their impression of that student. Ask them to point to a specific argument a student made that led to this impression and I doubt they could answer.

Why would a professor wait 5 weeks to grade someone on a discussion? I had professors put marks down next to our names DURING the discussion…If we made substantive or excellent discussion we would get positive marks…if we sat their scratching our heads or tried to BS our way through it, we got negative or NC marks. One professor went as far to point out (at the end of the quarter) the most thought provoking students that made the prof do double takes (some kind of new enlightenment on the prof’s part) during the discussion…in an art class, of course. He made notes of our discussions constantly…implying that attendance and participation was key to passing this class with a good grade. I bet that this professor and others like him can remember quite well which students made lasting impressions.

[vivalostwages]

When we’re having a discussion, I note the names of those participating students immediately. Nothing gets put on hold for five weeks.

[treis]

** Yeticus Rex ** thats pretty impressive if your professor can both lead a discussion and take detailed notes about individual students contributions.

** vivalostwages ** so you don’t even note if they said something intelligent at all?

What of all my other points?

[sinjin]

@treis

I don’t think anyone is saying that rather that argument is a strawman that has been constructed.

Can someone parse this statement for me?

[treis]

I (me treis) don’t (contraction for do not) think (verb signifying that the following statement is my opion) anyone (a noun referring to the people that posted in this thread) **is saying **(verb referring to the action of posting in this thread) that (pro-noun referring to the argument in the quoted section) rather (conjunction joing the two thoughts together) that argument (the argument referred to in the quoted section) ** is a strawman (a weak argument attributed to the opposing side that is torn down to prove your point) ** that has been constructed ** (action verb written in pasive voice).

[vivalostwages]

@treis

** Yeticus Rex ** thats pretty impressive if your professor can both lead a discussion and take detailed notes about individual students contributions.

** vivalostwages ** so you don’t even note if they said something intelligent at all?

What of all my other points?

I write down the name of anyone who participates in the discussion, though I don’t take notes on what they said. Ditto the name of anyone who contributes a topic while we’re brainstorming the research paper possibilities. Ditto for those willing to read a small section of a chapter just to get us started. There are a number of ways to get participation points, and most students get them. Of course, it helps to be present in class when all of this is going on.

[treis]

Hold on a second.

You have your students read from the book in class?

[vivalostwages]

A small bit of text here and there, so they can be more involved and not just have to listen to me the whole time. It also saves my throat (especially in the 3-hr. class) and allows them to perceive a paragraph or portion of an essay by hearing it rather than just reading it.

This is also especially helpful if I am teaching literary analysis. Poetry in particular really needs to be heard as well as read.

There are plenty of other opportunities for students to participate.

Example:
Me: How do you directly quote text?
Student: With double quotation marks.
Me: How do you directly quote something when it’s already in quotation marks, such as dialogue?
Student: Ummmm…single quotes?
Me: Singles inside of doubles.

[eponymous]

@treis

I can see your point but my opinion on the matter is that you really ought not bump anyones grade up.

Why not? If earning a “B” is 80 percent, and the student at the end of the quarter has a final percentage of 79.5, why shouldn’t I give the student the benefit of the doubt? Especially when said student has made a concerted effort to come to class on a regular basis and contributed to it in some fashion? It’s not as if I’m giving the B to the student, but rather giving then the benefit of the doubt with regards to everything they’ve been required to do for the course.

[quote]
I don’t really have a problem with this but I do have a problem if the sole reason you are bumping them up a grade is becuase they came to class.
[/quotes]

Depends on the circumstances - instructors may feel that being in the class and contributing in some fashion is important (for a host of reasons, not necessarily readily apparent to the student). Grading someone on their attendence isn’t normally done in isolation. Students don’t receive points just for showing up. Similarly, students aren’t docked soley because they are late or don’t attend (well, they can be, but for detailed reasons - the lateness/non-attendence grading aspect genrally occurs in conjuction with other important goals/objectives of the instructor).

Basing a portion of a student’s grade on attendence is much easier and simplier to get across to student’s than have to explain to them in excrutiating detail the reasons for why attending class is important. Which is what a host of people in this thread have attempted to do - with little affect apparently.

The grade is a reflection on how well you have learned the material. I am sorry you did not do as well as you liked. If you feel that you put as much effort in as you can and this is not an acceptable grade than perhaps you need to rethink your expectations. If the student failed in this case than that student can try again or might have to think of alternate career options.

As difficult as this may seem to you, learning the material for the course isn’t necessarily the only thing that instructor evaluates a student on (it’s generally the most important and relevant). As above, I would say the same thing to a student who came to me and wanted to know why they didn’t do as well in the class I was teaching because they didn’t attend my class on a regular basis (and were penalized accordingly).

If that students writing abilities are not up to snuff then that student needs to get in an appropriate english class. Being able to communicate your ideas in a written format is a fundamental skill that is both learned and needed in college. Any course that is a discussion format is most likely beyond the 100 level for that department. A student has ample time to improve his writing skills by the time they move onto higher level courses. If for some reason the student can’t improve his writing then again an alternate career might be in order.

And being able to communicate one’s ideas verbally is also an important and fundamental skill that is both learned and needed in college. Writing abilites are important (and emphasized in college). But it’s also important to help student’s develop their verbal skills as well. One doesn’t simply stop practicing and honing thier writing skills after they’ve completed an English Composition course. Neither does one stop practicng and honing their verbal skills after taking a debating/speech course. Some students may be better than others in their writing skills, while others may be better in their verbal skills. A good instructor’s job is to often to ensure that both are practiced and honed.

Well if you can answer a written question but can not answer that same question given orally there is some major learning disability going on here. If I just took a test where a question was “Who was the first president?” and got it correct then I see no reason I couldn’t answer if you asked me orally. Similiarly if I answer correctly when asked orally there is no reason I should not be able to respond correctly to a written question.

Depends on the circumstances - some students are great taking multiple choice exams; others better at taking writing essays. Still others are very good when asked direct and pointed questions about a particular topic. I’ve given oral exams to students who have bombed miserably, but do very well on written exams. And vice versa (admittedly, I’ve only done this a few times - but the courses I teach aren’t geared toward being in class on a regular basis and contributing to class discussion).

My answer is that if a student clearly grasps what has been conveyed yet can not correctly answer that question in a written format than there is something extraordinary going on here.

Ever deal with someone where English isn’t their native language? Someone who can converse with you in English on a reasonalbe basis, but hasn’t yet conquered the intricacies of written English/grammar/syntax? I have. Hell, I’ve had problems figuring out what a native speaker of English has written.

That is becuase you need to be skilled in driving and know the rules of the road. Unless you are teaching debate the situation does not apply to college.

Yes it does - unless you think one’s verbal skills/ability to interact with others in a meaningful way aren’t important.

Which question allows for greater depth?

On a written exam I can have up to a couple of hours to respond to your prompt. In a discussion based setting my answer should be on the order of 30-60 seconds. I require a much wider breadth of knowledge on the written exam compared to the discussion.

Why is knowing something in depth the only criteria? Why is the ability to convey that information in a meaningful way verbally (or other ways) less important - that is conveying it in a different manner? You may know a lot about a particular topic, but if you wre asked to convey that to others in a meaningful way verbally - could you do it? Doing so is just as much a skill as being about to convey that knowledge in depth in written form.

For example if the discussion was about abortion the knowledge required to give a 30 second blurb is much less than a full scale written response. In my written response I can point to multiple specific examples from the ruling and build my argument clearly showing that I have a firm grasp of the subject. I can most likely bullshit my way through a discussion from rudimentary knowledge of the case. Raising my hand when I can make an intelligent comment and hiding when I can’t. You may think I have a deep knowledge of the case becuase I answered multiple questions but that may be all I know.

One may be able to build a coherent and well thought written reponse on an exam, but fail to do so verbally. If I ask you a pointed question regarding abortion, you give me a response, and I ask you to elaborate and/or explain your answer, could you do so? In other words, I’m not necessarily testing you on whether you know something specific about abortion (to some extent I may be), but whether you can verbally communicate to me (and others) the rationale/logic of your elaboration/explanation.

[quote]
Why not alot say 10 minutes for each student during a written exam to give an oral examination? Then you can be concentrating on what the student is saying instead of concentrating on leading a discussion. You can take notes or record the exam if you need to go back and reconsider a grade. You are a professor (I think) can you think of multiple examples of intelligent arguments that your students made throughout the semester? If not how can you accurately grade them?
[/quotes]

As others have noted, a good instructor will often be keeping track of a student’s responses at the time of those responses.

The other problem with a discussion grade is that the discussion is the time that the students are learning the material. It is not fair to expect them to learn the material in the 10 seconds between the time you introduced it and the question you asked. Let the students study and prepare for an exam then test their knowledge.

In some cases, discussing the material is learning about it. As others have metioned, often times students will grasp a topic/subject much more readily if they can contribute their own experiences to the topic in a discussion format.

Effectively communicating ideas through writing is something that every humanities major needs. Just as your engineer needs to be able to draw a diagram, your mathematecian write a proof or your chemist perform a chemical reaction. It is an inherent skill that students need to be tested on. What good is a philosopher that can not write his ideas down? How famous would Kant or Voltaire be if they couldn’t communicate their ideas through writing?

The same needs to be said for effectively communicating ideas verbally - especially for those taking courses in the humanities. What good is a lawyer, or politician, or corporate CEO if they can’t communicate their views, their ideas verbally?

My main argument boils down to that discussion and attendence are not accurate ways of measuring a students knowledge. If a student doesn’t go to class and does well on the tests or in ** vivalostwages’ ** case gets As/Bs on papers then there is little to no reason for that student to attend. Certainly it will be beneficial for him to do so but that is his choice. To me a written test is more accurate and thus better than attendance/discussion grade in nearly every case I can think of.

In many cases it is, but not in all cases. vivalostwages appears to be an instrucutor where attending class & and participating are important objectives in ensuring that students are getting the most out of the class - based on past experience.

[vivalostwages]

Not just an update, but a twist at the end…

*Before class, April 8. Colleague entered dept. workroom, saw me and asked how I was doing with that student of mine that’s always late.
I asked him how he could have known about this when I hadn’t told him anything about it.
He said the student had tried looking for Dept. Head at 6pm on March 25, couldn’t find said person and then started complaining about me to aforementioned Colleague, apparently because he was the only one in the dept. at the time. As it is not his responsibility to record complaints from students, he dismissed Ayhole and told him to see the dept. head the next day.
Colleague’s comment to me: “That’s the most obnoxious student I have ever met.”

Fast forward to afternoon class. Student actually showed up a mere ten minutes late, proving once and for all that he could have gotten there sooner all along and was choosing not to.
He waited until the end of class, as always, to start up his crap. He asked for a syllabus, claiming he had never gotten one. I know this is b.s. but remained calm and pulled out a syllabus for him, mentioning that I have copies of them with me all the time. (And why the fuck would anyone wait until April to request a syllabus if one had “never” gotten one back in January?)

He then started in on me about coming in late to the library on March 25. (I make sure we’re outside the room, since I don’t wish to be alone with him in the classroom.) He now claims he was only 20 minutes late, as opposed to the actual 45, and that he has “witnesses.” (His stories change weekly.) I sighed and began walking away, not wishing to repeat the big argument of March 25.

Student: “Oh, walk away. That’s nice.”
Me: “What?”
Him: (muttering)
Me: “I’m not going to have this argument all over again. I want you to go and talk to my dean, XXX, because he’s on campus until 5 today.”
Student: “No, I want to see someone in the dept.”
Me: “You can try, but I know they’re not up there right now. XXX is available.”
Student (snotty tone): “I heard you. I prefer the dept., thank you.”
Me: “Okay. Go ahead.”
He went towards the dept.

Fast forward to birthday party/dinner for dept. head at 5:30 in another city. Everyone was there, which is why Student was doomed to find no one in the dept. that evening.

7:30: I went to say goodbye to dept. head, who told me that my Darling Student had spent an hour in DH’s office on Tuesday. D.Head did not buy his sob story and told him that he should have taken a class at a different time if it was going to interfere with his prayers.
DH then told me that he has pulled a lot of crap before with a number of instructors (I do not know if they were all from my dept.; couldn’t hear every detail over the din of the restaurant) and that he has a reputation as a jerk.

I was stunned, and now I wonder if this student might be borderline delusional or just has a very faulty memory circuit, because if he has already seen DH, then why the hell did he tell me that he wanted to speak to someone in my dept.?
He can try until doomsday but he will not find a sympathetic ear among them.

So I found out only a few hours ago that I am not his first target after all. I’m just the most recent target because he happens to be in my class at this time.

I’d really like to know what this guy’s background is, how many classes he has attempted, how many times he’s gotten on an instructor’s back, and why he’s still here if he’s pulled this crap before.
I am also disgusted with him for hassling the other professors. It looks as if it’s not going to stop unless I file a misconduct report and get someone else involved.

This has nothing to do with ego, attendance policies, grades, religious accommodations, blah blah blah.
It has everything to do with a student whose obnoxiousness and arrogance are unlimited.

God, I hate Fridays.

[SnakesCatLady]

My undergraduate college (a private Methodist college in GA) had a strict attendance policy for most freshman and jock courses. As the courses got more detailed - as opposed to “overview” classes - the attendance policies were relaxed for most classes.

Like it or not, most (MOST) (I am repeating this for the few posters who seem to think every comment is directed straight at them: MOST) straight out of high school freshmen college students do not have much self-disclipine. For many of them, it is the first time in their lives that they have actually made the day-to-day decisions involved in life. Do I go to breakfast in the cafeteria (since Mom isn’t here to make it for me?) No, I’d rather sleep the extra hour. Then I have no one but myself to blame when I go hungry - I made the decision on my own. Attendance policies (and trust me I hated them as much as the next) are a way of starting young people into the real world where the boss DOES care if you come in on time or at all. It is very easy to say “fine, let them fail if they don’t know the material.” Then the faculty member all the way up to the College President have angry parents (“I’m not paying his tuition for him to fail”), media (“Why does HorseShoe College have such a low graduation rate - story at 6”) and legislators ("The football team isn’t winning and the students aren’t graduating’) all climbing their asses because 18-year-old Joe/Jane decided a frat/sorority party was more impotant than attending class. Most of the posters seem to see an attendance policy as worthless. In lower level courses it is teaching responsibility - something a lot of young people have yet to learn.

There are exceptions to everything. But if you know the rules in advance, which this student was given the opportinuity to learn and chose to ignore for 2-3 months, you have nothing to complain about. If you go to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles to get your license, you will pay for it. You will pay a State office, which is theoretically "your government’, for this license. If you then go out and get caught speeding, the State Patrol is not going to listen to “hey you work for me” or “I drive Indy cars in my spare time so I am perfectly safe to drive 35 miles an hour over the speed limit set for everyone else.” You are going to get a ticket, and if you had read the drivers manual you are required to read to get the license in the first place, you will know this.

And as for feeling bullied, it doesn’t have to be physical to be intimidating. I should know - my mom was 5 ft - don’n mess with those SMALL redheads! They are dangerous!

[vivalostwages]

Thank you for those clarifications, Snakescatlady.

As I noted in post #255, there’s no point in further arguments over attendance, tardiness, etc.–especially in light of what happened on April 8 and what I learned later that evening.

I’ll make this short: Report filed. Letter sent by Student Life to student. It’s their job to get his side of the story, and that’s fine. No longer my problem.