# Student banned from wearing somewhat graphic pro-life T shirt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263 "2009-07-07T22:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/1 "2009-07-07T22:35:45Z")
[Here’s the article](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530284,00.html?mrp) with picture. Okay, it’s Fox News, but I really just wanted a picture of the shirt. Do you guys think it’s too graphic/inappropriate for school? It’s definitely kind of oogy but I don’t think it’s as graphic as I was afraid it would be. I tried to ask myself if I would be offended by a similar pro-choice t shirt. The only kind of pro-choice shirt that comes to mind is a picture of a clothes hanger or something like it. What do you guys think–too graphic? (Originally was going to put this in IMHO, but I figured things would get heated, so here it is in GD.) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/2 "2009-07-07T22:38:40Z")
Whether its too graphic or not (and for the record, its not graphic at all, I was expecting bloody fetus parts or something), a public school has the right to demand students not wear certain articles of clothing. Public school kids have no expectation of free speech rights on school grounds and high school handbooks across the country will often say so in writing, I know mine did. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/3 "2009-07-07T22:44:49Z")
It seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether a kid would be allowed to wear a shirt with an equivalent message in the opposite direction. I support abortion rights bu tend to side with the student on this one unless the school had a “no political message” policy. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/4 "2009-07-07T22:47:14Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Whether its too graphic or not (and for the record, its not graphic at all, I was expecting bloody fetus parts or something), a public school has the right to demand students not wear certain articles of clothing. > > Public school kids have no expectation of free speech rights on school grounds and high school handbooks across the country will often say so in writing, I know mine did. What they cannot do, however, is apply said policy in particular manners. Allowing a pro-choice t shirt and not a pro life one (assuming the ‘graphic-ness’ of the shirts was the same) would be problematic. The argument being made from the article is that they allow some “expressive” shirts and not others. That doesn’t give us anywhere near enough to go on. The other argument I saw, that the pictures are no more graphic than those in a science text book, strikes me as a total loser. A science text book may well have a picture of a penis in it, for example, and walking around with that on a shirt is likely to be bannable without first amendment problems in school. Just as walking around with your own penis out probably would be easily banned. Other than a snide remark that I am sure the child picked her own wardrobe and wasn’t encouraged in any way by the mother, I’d need to look at the school’s policy and how it has been enforced in the past to work out which way this one will come down. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/5 "2009-07-07T22:50:30Z")
> [@villa](#): > > What they cannot do, however, is apply said policy in particular manners. Allowing a pro-choice t shirt and not a pro life one (assuming the ‘graphic-ness’ of the shirts was the same) would be problematic. That depends on the wording in the handbook. It’s been a while, but I believe mine specifically cited vulgarity as cause to remove a shirt and anythnig else that could disrupt a classroom setting. It’s the same thing I tell the patrons in the library when they complain “that person that left was really loud!”… “well I can’t do anything about it until someone says something.” If no one notices, the shirt is “allowed”. But that resets every day. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/6 "2009-07-07T22:50:48Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Whether its too graphic or not (and for the record, its not graphic at all, I was expecting bloody fetus parts or something), a public school has the right to demand students not wear certain articles of clothing. > > Public school kids have no expectation of free speech rights on school grounds and high school handbooks across the country will often say so in writing, I know mine did. You should have said something like “optimal pedagogical policy would give schools the right to prevent students from wearing certain articles of clothing, etc. etc.” Unfortunately, you instead Constitutionalized it and got it _[quite wrong.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District)_ ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/7 "2009-07-07T22:55:00Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That depends on the wording in the handbook. It’s been a while, but I believe mine specifically cited vulgarity as cause to remove a shirt and anythnig else that could disrupt a classroom setting. It really doesn’t (obviousness about it being noticed aside). If you have a policy that says “no vulgarity” and you can show in a law suit that pro-life shirts are considered vulgar, and pro-choice one’s aren’t (with no other relevant differences), then the policy will be struck. Similarly, if the enforcement of a code is such that only “right wing” causes are deemed disruptive and “left wing” ones are not, then that policy won’t stand. Many of these policies are written in such as way as to be unlikely to survive determined challenge. But mostly people don’t challenge them. If you are going to restrict speech, you have to do it in a neutral fashion. Where this tends to break down most, admittedly, is when race gets involved. We can argue the constitutionality of speech codes (I think most of them are on very dubious grounds) but that is somewhat of a hijack here. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/8 "2009-07-07T23:03:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You should have said something like “optimal pedagogical policy would give schools the right to prevent students from wearing certain articles of clothing, etc. etc.” Unfortunately, you instead Constitutionalized it and got it _[quite wrong.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District)_ > [@villa](#): > > Many of these policies are written in such as way as to be unlikely to survive determined challenge. But mostly people don’t challenge them. If you are going to restrict speech, you have to do it in a neutral fashion. Where this tends to break down most, admittedly, is when race gets involved. We can argue the constitutionality of speech codes (I think most of them are on very dubious grounds) but that is somewhat of a hijack here. The thing about these policies is that I’ve almost never seen one quoted in an article like the one found in the OP that didn’t include some form of the phrase “Schools can prohibit clothing if the administration believes it will cause a disruption in the education process.” And really, as written, _why_ would anyone challenge such a policy? In the case of this abortion shirt, allowing it would open the door for pro-abortion shirts and the mother of the student in the article definitely wouldn’t want that. Besides that, I’d imagine if you performed a study of “banned clothes”, nearly all of them would be due to some drug reference or vulgar phrase. Politics among teenagers in schools is in short supply. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/9 "2009-07-07T23:07:28Z")
I don’t see how the OP shirt is oogy in any way. The front is matter-factual and the back is just text that says nothing more than “I’m pro-life”. If the student was wearing the shirt as an attack on someone else–like another girl in the school who had had an abortion–then I’d say it was just trolling and should be disallowed in that one case. Otherwise, and especially not if it is “Pro-life day”, should it be prohibited. It doesn’t interfere with anyone’s school day, or at least not beyond people being given something to think about. I don’t think you’d see any battles or brawls over it. I’m pro-choice, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/10 "2009-07-07T23:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The complaint quotes school district officials saying that they ordered Amador’s daughter to remove the shirt because it constituted “inappropriate subject matter” in violation of the school’s dress code, which bans clothing with “suggestion of tobacco, drug or alcohol use, sexual promiscuity, profanity, vulgarity, or other inappropriate subject matter.” That’s pretty funny. Since the t-shirt doesn’t seem to fall into any of the specifically named categories, this can be reduced to "the shirt is ‘inappropriate subject matter’ by virtue of being in violation of the school’s ban on inappropriate subject matter. Okee-dokee. That’s not too circular. Would they have banned a t-shirt that simply had a picture of a fetus, same as the ones shown (i.e., not mutilated)? If the answer to that is no, then clearly they are banning the message and not the “graphic image.” I can only speculate on their full rationale based on the info provided, but I say they overreacted, the shirt is not disruptive (whether or not they agree with the message), and this violated the kid’s first amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/11 "2009-07-07T23:16:18Z")
Side question: Are school uniforms enforced in public schools in the US? Here in Aus, Brisbane to be more precise, uniforms are an integral part of public schooling (at least in my area). This includes shirt, pants, shoes, jumper, (and tie and hat - but not so enforced). In Adelaide it’s similar (except not enforced to the same degree as in Brissie - at least in the northern suburbs of Adelaide). ANYWAY - question aside - this is why I believe uniforms in schools are important - there’s no ambiguity in “what is appropriate” - and free speech (which should be reserved for outside of the shool). Saying that, and getting back to the OP, the tshirt is not graphic at all… And I’m not swayed either way by the abortion argument. To tell you the truth, I scrolled up and down the page of the link to find the offending graphic, before I realised what image was being discussed. I see more inappropriateness in tshirts bearing the [FCUK](http://usa.frenchconnection.com/product/mens+tees+and+polos/56AN1/rally+racer+tee.htm) logo (i keep reading it as FUCK), or the many various “Gangsta” tshirts around the market. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/12 "2009-07-07T23:19:10Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > …then I’d say it was just trolling and should be disallowed… I find this to be a fascinating theory of the case. Unfortunately, I must have missed the day in torts (or would it have been crim law?) where we discussed “trolling.” What are the elements of trolling and what defenses can be raised? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/13 "2009-07-07T23:20:46Z")
Schools have a right to restrict political expression if they have the potential to create distractions in the classroom. The T-shirt in question is inappropriately strident and loud for a 7th grade classroom. Administrators in these situations are generally trying to preemptively defuse things before kids start brawling in the hallways. It’s abouit keeping peace, not suppressing a particular message. The kids parents in this case are assholes for using their child in such a boorish, and clearly calculated manner. They were trolling and they got what they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/14 "2009-07-07T23:22:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The other argument I saw, that the pictures are no more graphic than those in a science text book, strikes me as a total loser. A science text book may well have a picture of a penis in it, for example, and walking around with that on a shirt is likely to be bannable without first amendment problems in school. Someone should try wearing an abstinence tee with a photo of genital warts and see what happens. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If the student was wearing the shirt as an attack on someone else–like another girl in the school who had had an abortion–then I’d say it was just trolling and should be disallowed in that one case. How many 12/13-year-old girls make their abortions public knowledge? The shirt was a lot less graphic than I thought it would be, but still probably not appropriate for a middle school. It is political, regardless of what the mother says about it being about nothing about how ‘life is sacred.’ I don’t doubt that the girl is pro-life – selling any teen or 'tween on adorable babies living in bliss with Madonna versus evil doctors stealing them and grinding them up to make poison isn’t really hard. It takes a while – and some actual (sex) life experience – for them to discover the grey areas. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/15 "2009-07-07T23:25:16Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s pretty funny. Since the t-shirt doesn’t seem to fall into any of the specifically named categories, this can be reduced to "the shirt is ‘inappropriate subject matter’ by virtue of being in violation of the school’s ban on inappropriate subject matter. Okee-dokee. That’s not too circular. > > Would they have banned a t-shirt that simply had a picture of a fetus, same as the ones shown (i.e., not mutilated)? If the answer to that is no, then clearly they are banning the message and not the “graphic image.” I can only speculate on their full rationale based on the info provided, but I say they overreacted, the shirt is not disruptive (whether or not they agree with the message), and this violated the kid’s first amendment rights. The Supreme Court has ruled that speech can be restricted if it distracts from the mission of the school. All the school has to argue is that the shirt had the potential to be disruptive in the classroom. Clearly, any strident message on either side of the abortion issue has the potential to be disruptive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/16 "2009-07-07T23:25:44Z")
It should be noted this was an _elementary_ school. Perhaps that had something to do with it? If she were in high school, perhaps she’d have more of a case. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/17 "2009-07-07T23:28:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It should be noted this was an _elementary_ school. Perhaps that had something to do with it? If she were in high school, perhaps she’d have more of a case. Well, it said she was in 7th grade. That’s middle school, not elementary, right? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/18 "2009-07-07T23:28:40Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I find this to be a fascinating theory of the case. Unfortunately, I must have missed the day in torts (or would it have been crim law?) where we discussed “trolling.” What are the elements of trolling and what defenses can be raised? This wouldn’t be a legal issue, it would be a common sense issue. One kid harassing another kid = Bad. There’s not much more to it than it. Bullying is still bullying regardless of whether it’s physical or psychological. At times, it might even be worse when it is psychological. Among other things, I suspect that suicide rates are higher among people who are being bullied. Having an abortion, itself, is most assuredly a very stressful and emotional thing. To be shamed immediately after having done so could definitely be the sort of thing to push someone over the edge. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/19 "2009-07-07T23:29:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, it said she was in 7th grade. That’s middle school, not elementary, right? The school in question: _McSwain Elementary School, a K-8 school_. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/20 "2009-07-07T23:30:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s pretty funny. Since the t-shirt doesn’t seem to fall into any of the specifically named categories, this can be reduced to "the shirt is ‘inappropriate subject matter’ by virtue of being in violation of the school’s ban on inappropriate subject matter. Okee-dokee. That’s not too circular. > > Would they have banned a t-shirt that simply had a picture of a fetus, same as the ones shown (i.e., not mutilated)? If the answer to that is no, then clearly they are banning the message and not the “graphic image.” I can only speculate on their full rationale based on the info provided, but I say they overreacted, the shirt is not disruptive (whether or not they agree with the message), and this violated the kid’s first amendment rights. The school can not regulate speech, but they can restrict topics to those appropriate to school. I.E. “No political t-shirts” is ok, but “No republican t-shirts” is not acceptable. Personally, this is in the gray area where everyone should just relax and go with the flow. I don’t think most 7th graders are going to hold self-formed opinions or defend them intelligently about abortion. This smacks of parental expression through kids, and I can see that leading to conflict in schools. I don’t think it is inappropriate for a principal to use his judgment and ban shirts on explosive political issues. If this were high schoolers then I would agree that the shirt would pose no problem. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263.md?page=2)