# Student banned from wearing somewhat graphic pro-life T shirt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263 "2009-07-07T22:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruby\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_G)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/41 "2009-07-08T00:52:30Z")
That fetus in the first picture on that shirt is naked and you can see its butt. I know baby butts aren’t really a big deal but you shouldn’t have pictures of tehm on a shirt in school. ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/42 "2009-07-08T00:54:02Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > _“And what is a good citizen? Simply one who never says, does or thinks anything that is unusual. Schools are maintained in order to bring this uniformity up to the highest possible point. A school is a hopper into which children are heaved while they are still young and tender; therein they are pressed into certain standard shapes and covered from head to heels with official rubber-stamps.”_ – **H.L. Mencken** > > I want children to learn to think, to question, and, where required, to reject all authority to the contrary and fight for what she or he believes is right. This is what schools should be teaching, and all other teaching is secondary to this, for only when we are free is it possible to advance. Breakthroughs are never made by plodding professionals taking safe routes over well-mapped territory; they’re made by brilliant rebels against the status quo who brave ridicule and persecution – often from their own peers – to break new trails through the thickets. > > “Tiny invisible animals that make people sick? Ho ho ho, Dr. Pasteur has tipped over his little jar of marbles.” Let me point you [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523511). (ok.. I was trying to be funny… not offensive) Anyway… Even H.L. Mencken went to [school (night school, journalism)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken#Life). Anyway.. You still think I’m saying that a school shoud not have free expression… it can… BUT conforming to the school’s rules. You are allowed to say “hey, I believe that abortion is bad” (free speech). But you should not be permitted to stand on your desk and interrupt the class and yell out carrying banners saying “abortion is bad”. Or wear a tshirt saying the same thing. A school should educate you without bias… so that you CAN make up your own mind and decide where you side. Even in this forum, you are allowed free speech. But you have this freedom, in a set of rules. My belief is that a school IS for learning… your belief MAY be to go against what a school is trying to teach you — YOUR choice. If I don’t want my kids to wear a uniform, I put them in a school that doesn’t enforce this. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/43 "2009-07-08T01:20:47Z")
> [@Ruby\_G](#): > > That fetus in the first picture on that shirt is naked and you can see its butt. I know baby butts aren’t really a big deal but you shouldn’t have pictures of tehm on a shirt in school. [Hijack] Oh. My. God. Ever wondered if a certain fetish existed but were too afraid to Google or even wonder aloud? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/44 "2009-07-08T01:32:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is no absolute right to free speech in a public school, and there is no right to disrupt the mission of a school by turning your children into inflammatory political banners. While I’m not a student of constitutional law, and never plan to be, I have to make a critical point to **Kimmy\_Gibbler** here, which is this: School handbooks that state in whatever context that “disruptive” clothing is not permitted are written by the people that live and work in the schools with those kids on a daily basis. They’ve seen the arguments, and the disruptive effect that certain messages on clothing have on the classroom. Fine - find someone to fine tune the language so The Nine can agree that it’s fair, ok - no argument. But, YES - clothing with messages can have one hell of a distracting effect in a school. The administrators need to be able to regulate what’s allowed in clothing, behavior, and to some extent - speech in the school setting. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/45 "2009-07-08T01:33:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > I’m not sure it would be possible to prove that someone was wearing a political shirt to target a specific person This isn’t a court, it’s a school. No one needs to prove something, a teacher just needs to know the people involved well enough to be able to make a best guess as to what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/46 "2009-07-08T02:13:24Z")
> [@cat fight](#): > > [hijack] oh. My. God. Ever wondered if a certain fetish existed but were too afraid to google or even wonder aloud? [/hijack] oh!!! You’re sick!!! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/47 "2009-07-08T02:37:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A picture of a woman’s gravestone with the caption “Couldn’t get an abortion when she needed one” seems close in spirit. I think so, too. Definitely not something graphic, but something that indicates that death is going to result if xyz is not followed. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/48 "2009-07-08T02:40:07Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The thing about these policies is that I’ve almost never seen one quoted in an article like the one found in the OP that didn’t include some form of the phrase “Schools can prohibit clothing if the administration believes it will cause a disruption in the education process.” The reason for that, of course, is that it grants them the maximum discretion and provides the least grounds for challenge. But a policy doesn’t just have to be constitutional as written, it has to be constitutional as applied. And again, if the school is allowing some political expression via T-shirt and disallowing other, it is opening up itself to potentially successful constitutional challenge. Courts will often go to great lengths to avoid pretty obvious flaws here, but sometimes they will actually remember what the constitution actually says. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > And really, as written, _why_ would anyone challenge such a policy? In the case of this abortion shirt, allowing it would open the door for pro-abortion shirts and the mother of the student in the article definitely wouldn’t want that. Well, my guess is here that the challenge is an end in itself. Not only do certain groups like to appear persecuted, not least because it fulfills some quasi-Biblical fantasy they have about end times and ‘Left Behind’ but also because it gives publicity. The same thing happens with license plates - Pro Life plates will of course open the the door for Pro Choice ones, but the intention is to ensure that one can show the world how pious one is, as well as identify the heathen. Furthermore, abortion opponents tend to be more openly vocal about it. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Besides that, I’d imagine if you performed a study of “banned clothes”, nearly all of them would be due to some drug reference or vulgar phrase. Politics among teenagers in schools is in short supply. Drugs/profanity are easy to ban. And while politics may be in short supply in teenagers, religious politics sure as hell aren’t. While there are pro-lifers who aren’t Christians, I would wager a bet that a significant majority of pro-life activists in the US would also identify as Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/49 "2009-07-08T02:42:48Z")
> [@Mr Bus Guy](#): > > But, YES - clothing with messages can have one hell of a distracting effect in a school. Consider the breadth of this assertion. Here you are saying that “messages”–without qualification to their mode of expression–sufficiently “distract” pupils’ attentions from a government-mandated program of instruction that the First Amendment should stop at the schoolhouse. It is hard to think of a claim more antithetical to the entire enterprise of the First Amendment. However inconvenient school administrators may find submitting to the demands of the First Amendment (and I have little confidence in the ability of most educrats to either appreciate the motivation for the First Amendment or to be able to detach themselves from self-serving assessments of pedagogical requirements), they are not freed from the obligation to show concrete and imminent disruption and interference. A simple all-purpose conclusory statement in a handbook will not suffice. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/50 "2009-07-08T02:44:08Z")
For a slightly different take - Isn’t abortion only allowed in the first trimester (unless medically indicated). I am not a gynae, but the baby in the second panel looks waaayyy bigger to me than first trimester - in fact it looks to me to be around 41 sweeks gestation. So while not “graphic” I would tend to ban it from the school on the basis of being unneccessarily (wow - too many letters there?) and deliberately inflammatry ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/51 "2009-07-08T02:51:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The reason for that, of course, is that it grants them the maximum discretion and provides the least grounds for challenge. But a policy doesn’t just have to be constitutional as written, it has to be constitutional as applied. And again, if the school is allowing some political expression via T-shirt and disallowing other, it is opening up itself to potentially successful constitutional challenge. Ah, but you’re missing the beauty of the rule as written. “Anything that disrupts the classroom” can be interpreted pretty broadly and if a student raises a stink over a t-shirt the school has asked them to remove, the school can turn around and say “Well then no shirts with words or symbols on them.” School is about learning and I really had no sympathy for the jackasses who used to be shocked when the school made them remove their “Big Johnson” t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/52 "2009-07-08T02:54:52Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, my guess is here that the challenge is an end in itself. Not only do certain groups like to appear persecuted, not least because it fulfills some quasi-Biblical fantasy they have about end times and ‘Left Behind’ but also because it gives publicity. The same thing happens with license plates - Pro Life plates will of course open the the door for Pro Choice ones, but the intention is to ensure that one can show the world how pious one is, as well as identify the heathen. Furthermore, abortion opponents tend to be more openly vocal about it. There is a less cynical rationale as well, which should not be neglected. Human beings are political animals, and when we think something unjust is going on or that some policy would make the world a better place, we typically feel the need to speak up about it. The ability to express one’s ideas matters. This is why we find the Stepford wives so loathsome: material comforts and social harmony are desirable, but if comes at the expense of thinking for ourselves and speaking out, we don’t want it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/53 "2009-07-08T02:55:50Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > For a slightly different take - > Isn’t abortion only allowed in the first trimester (unless medically indicated). I am not a gynae, but the baby in the second panel looks waaayyy bigger to me than first trimester - in fact it looks to me to be around 41 sweeks gestation. So while not “graphic” I would tend to ban it from the school on the basis of being unneccessarily (wow - too many letters there?) and deliberately inflammatry Nope - under _Roe_, the end of the second trimester is the point at which a state may ban abortion except where the life/health of the mother is at stake. Under the plurality of _Casey_, that point is reduced to viability, circa 22/23 weeks at the time of the decision. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/54 "2009-07-08T02:57:30Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Ah, but you’re missing the beauty of the rule as written. “Anything that disrupts the classroom” can be interpreted pretty broadly and if a student raises a stink over a t-shirt the school has asked them to remove, the school can turn around and say “Well then no shirts with words or symbols on them.” Not missing it at all. That’s what I have been saying. If you are going to ban one viewpoint, you have to ban them all. Hence me saying earlier that the potential plaintiff here states that the school allows some expression and not other being a possible hook for litigation… ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/55 "2009-07-08T03:03:30Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Nope - under _Roe_, the end of the second trimester is the point at which a state may ban abortion except where the life/health of the mother is at stake. > > Under the plurality of _Casey_, that point is reduced to viability, circa 22/23 weeks at the time of the decision. Thanks for righting my wrong 🙂 OK…but even then isn’t the baby shown in the second picture waaay bigger than 24 weeks gestation? Totally seat of pants, but is seems to be intentionally misleading - which to me would be grounds for banning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/56 "2009-07-08T03:17:44Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Thanks for righting my wrong 🙂 OK…but even then isn’t the baby shown in the second picture waaay bigger than 24 weeks gestation? Totally seat of pants, but is seems to be intentionally misleading - which to me would be grounds for banning. Maybe so, but I don’t think this argument (_viz._ the tee-shirt somewhat mischaracterizes fetal development) really has any legs with respect to whether school administrators may ban it without running afoul of the First Amendment. It really is a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/57 "2009-07-08T03:25:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s all about what might be disruptive. Personally, I would just want to keep any and all political expression out of the classroom. > > Heh. You’ve never been inside an American inner city school, I take it. Prison would be safer. I’d love to see a defiition of “political expression” that you would accept. I’ve been to tough, dirt-floor, no-windows, no-running-water, no-chalkboard schools in Peru and you’d never get beaten for that. > [@Ruby\_G](#): > > That fetus in the first picture on that shirt is naked and you can see its butt. I know baby butts aren’t really a big deal but you shouldn’t have pictures of tehm on a shirt in school. It’s not a baby, it’s a clump of cells, a blood clot, DO NOT humanize it…next thing oyu know you’re saying it has rights! the horror!! > [@bengangmo](#): > > Thanks for righting my wrong 🙂 OK…but even then isn’t the baby shown in the second picture waaay bigger than 24 weeks gestation? Totally seat of pants, but is seems to be intentionally misleading - which to me would be grounds for banning. Since 3rd trimester abortions are available (maybe not widespread) it is, at most, exageration. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/58 "2009-07-08T03:37:20Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Maybe so, but I don’t think this argument (_viz._ the tee-shirt somewhat mischaracterizes fetal development) really has any legs with respect to whether school administrators may ban it without running afoul of the First Amendment. It really is a non-starter. Probably not - I just wish that in such discussions there could be a little more common sense displayed. If you wanna show the world you are pro-life, great for you. Just don’t mischaracterise the debate. BTW - I am kinda nominally sorta prolife - believing that abortion is wrong in the general sense. I just that the mothers right to asses her own situation trumps this belief. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/59 "2009-07-08T03:42:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Consider the breadth of this assertion. Here you are saying that “messages”–without qualification to their mode of expression–sufficiently “distract” pupils’ attentions from a government-mandated program of instruction that the First Amendment should stop at the schoolhouse. Yes. And this is how it’s always been. There has never been any absolute right of free expression for students in a public school. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263/60 "2009-07-08T03:55:58Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Probably not - I just wish that in such discussions there could be a little more common sense displayed. If you wanna show the world you are pro-life, great for you. Just don’t mischaracterise the debate. > > BTW - I am kinda nominally sorta prolife - believing that abortion is wrong in the general sense. I just that the mothers right to asses her own situation trumps this belief. I don’t think that second picture is as far along as you think. There’s really no flesh on that arm, and the eyelids look as if they might still be fused shut. I think it fits well into the 24 week window. If I had to guess I’d probably put it about 20 weeks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-banned-from-wearing-somewhat-graphic-pro-life-t-shirt/502263.md?page=4)