# Student Kidnaps the Eucharist... PZ Myers to the Rescue! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147 "2008-07-11T16:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/321 "2008-07-16T16:47:43Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I declare that the Sun rotates around the Earth. Sombody proves me wrong. I then spend the next hundred years condemning that guy and his supporters as heretics before finally admitting my mistake. [/QUOTE] And then General Relativity, comes along, and it turns out that both were right. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/322 "2008-07-16T16:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=Revtim] It’s kind of ironic that you won’t bring yourself to admit error. [/QUOTE] I thought I just did. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/323 "2008-07-16T16:53:09Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > But the example he gave “I changed my mind about Muslim holy pigs” is analogous to “I changed my mind about the sky being green”. Or here, try this one: “Muslims don’t eat pork because pigs are holy” versus “When some guy says a few words over a cracker it magically changes into the body of Christ.” Just like your example, both statements are demonstrably false. I change my mind when confronted with evidence, others do not. > [@](#): > > He quite plainly formed an opinion without knowing anything at all about the subject. He never bothered to consult the evidence in the first place! How many people that believe in the Eucharist do you think carefully considered all the evidence from both sides before coming to believe it? Some, perhaps. Not most. That’s the whole reason the Catholics try to get them when they’re young, so they’re not equipped to look at the evidence from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/324 "2008-07-16T17:05:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon] And then General Relativity, comes along, and it turns out that both were right. 😛 [/QUOTE] Touche. 😃 (pretend there’s an accent aigu over the e because I don’t know what the Windows code for it is) > [@](#): > > That’s the whole reason the Catholics try to get them when they’re young, so they’re not equipped to look at the evidence from both sides. Bit unfair to single out Catholics in that regard, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/325 "2008-07-16T17:06:31Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Or here, try this one: “Muslims don’t eat pork because pigs are holy” versus “When some guy says a few words over a cracker it magically changes into the body of Christ.” Just like your example, both statements are demonstrably false. I change my mind when confronted with evidence, others do not. [/QUOTE] Not quite. These two statements are not at all analogous, as far as the point you are trying to make is concerned. If you compared whether or not pigs are ACTUALLY HOLY with whether or not transubstatiation ACTUALLY TAKES PLACE, then you are right, one cannot demonstrate or verify those claims. But, in the first, you are talking about a factual statement about what a certain religion believes. There is plenty of evidence to consider in this regard (such as the Wikipedia entry about Islam, I’m sure). In the second, you are disputing whether or not a belief is _actually true_, not whether it reflects what the religion believes, which is not verifiable. That is, there _is no evidence_ to consider, scientific or otherwise (see Bricker’s excellent explanation of this in GD). It doesn’t take a very open-minded person to accept a brief education about what a religion believes. > [@](#): > > How many people that believe in the Eucharist do you think carefully considered all the evidence from both sides before coming to believe it? Some, perhaps. Not most. That’s the whole reason the Catholics try to get them when they’re young, so they’re not equipped to look at the evidence from both sides. If you think that most people decide to believe in the Eucharist when they have their 1st Communion, and never question it ever again for the rest of their lives, you are completely wrong. You can’t even imagine how wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/326 "2008-07-16T17:08:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] If you think that most people decide to believe in the Eucharist when they have their 1st Communion, and never question it ever again for the rest of their lives, you are completely wrong. You can’t even imagine how wrong. [/QUOTE] In more general terms, do you really think that most Biblical literalists honestly and objectively weigh the evidence for and against their beliefs before coming to conclusions about whether or not they’re true? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/327 "2008-07-16T17:16:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon] But the example he gave “I changed my mind about Muslim holy pigs” is analogous to “I changed my mind about the sky being green”. [/quote] Ya think? I don’t. Especially since the Quran never gives a reason why eating pork is prohibited. It’s more analogous to: Had some examples listed above but on preview I like **Really Not All That Bright** ’s and **DCMS** ’s better. [QUOTE=Sinaijon] He quite plainly formed an opinion _without knowing anything at all about the subject_. He never bothered to consult the evidence in the first place! In essence, he was just making shit up. Then, having been proved that he was 100% factually incorrect, he acquiesces. [/quote] No, that’s not at all what happened. He didn’t form an opinion; he stated as a fact something he thought was correct. He was wrong about an aspect of Islam, probably just based on a reason for a food prohibition in another religion- that is all. Not the same as “making shit up”. No one proved that he was incorrect either. Someone merely stated he was wrong and he accepted it. [QUOTE=Sinaijon] (bolding mine)And now, using that as an example, he claims he’s willing to change his mind, **and therefore better than theists**? Hardly. [/QUOTE] I went over this with **Miller** already; I’m not going to go over it again with you. [QUOTE=Sinaijon] And then General Relativity, comes along, and it turns out that both were right. 😛 [/QUOTE] No, it doesn’t. [QUOTE=Miller] I thought I just did. [/QUOTE] Then maybe you’ll respond to my last post directed at you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/328 "2008-07-16T17:29:00Z")
Sorry, missed this earlier: [QUOTE=x-ray vision] Seriously? I just went over all of his posts in this thread and I’m not seeing it. Can you point any of these posts out to me? [/QUOTE] Pretty much all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/329 "2008-07-16T17:36:39Z")
> [@](#): > > In the second, you are disputing whether or not a belief is actually true, not whether it reflects what the religion believes, which is not verifiable. But I believe it is verifiable by lab testing. > [@](#): > > That is, there is no evidence to consider, scientific or otherwise (see Bricker’s excellent explanation of this in GD). Sure there is. Lab tests. And I did see Bricker’s explanation. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t take a very open-minded person to accept a brief education about what a religion believes. I carefully considered Bricker’s explanation, and I repeatedly asked Miller to explain his beliefs to me in this thread. I was unconvinced by Bricker’s explanation. > [@](#): > > If you think that most people decide to believe in the Eucharist when they have their 1st Communion, and never question it ever again for the rest of their lives, you are completely wrong. You can’t even imagine how wrong. I never said that. Please re-read my post. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/330 "2008-07-16T17:38:38Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Bit unfair to single out Catholics in that regard, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] I was talking about the Eucharist, that’s why I mentioned Catholics. But you are absolutely right, religion in general tries to get them while they’re young, that way they are unequipped to carefully consider alternative explanations objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/331 "2008-07-16T17:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Sinaijon > > And then General Relativity, comes along, and it turns out that both were right. > > No, it doesn’t. Can you elaborate? Do you mean ‘No, GR did not come along’, or ‘No, there is indeed a preferred reference frame and it is not earth?’ ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/332 "2008-07-16T18:01:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon] Can you elaborate? Do you mean ‘No, GR did not come along’, or ‘No, there is indeed a preferred reference frame and it is not earth?’ [/QUOTE] That’s the statement of mine you chose to respond to? General Relativity does not suggest that the “Sun rotates around the Earth” and the “Earth rotates around the Sun” are both correct statements. Would you like to discuss this in another thread? ---
**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/333 "2008-07-16T18:15:23Z")
At the risk of derailing the current conversation, I thought I’d provide an update to the OP. PZ Myers has been interviewed by the Minnesotain Independant, here: [Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](http://minnesotaindependent.com/view/mnindy-interview). Here are a few choice comments that I thought were particularly good. > [@](#): > > MnIndy: I was raised Catholic, was an altar boy, and attended Catholic grade school and college. While I was taught to be reverent with Catholic symbols and artifacts\*\*, I also learned of a powerful god, totally unlike this fragile one that can be damaged by a non-believer’s mishandling of a communion wafer\*\*. (bolding mine Regarding the antisemitism that some (not in this thread, I think) have suggested are at the root of the attack: > [@](#): > > Constantine’s Sword is a book (and now a documentary) written by James Carroll, a former Catholic priest. It’s a personal history of the unpleasant history of the church and anti-semitism, and shows that Catholicism has benefited from fueling an image of itself as always threatened by unbelievers – Jews, Muslims, Satanists, atheists – and that this reliance on hatred of the other has damaged the virtue of the faith. (Carroll is still a devout Catholic – he just deplores the distortion of a message of love into a message of fear and hate.) The idea that Jews, for instance, want to steal consecrated wafers as an element of evil Jewish rites has been circulated fairly often, as a preliminary rationalization for oppression. > > Curiously, many (but still a minority) of the email messages I have received have ‘accused’ me of being Jewish, addressing me as “jew boy” or “liberal pinko jew.” > > MnIndy: Are you concerned for your safety? > > Myers: Well, most of the ravers who threaten me with horrible fates are far away, hiding in the safety of their mothers’ bedrooms, hurling vituperation anonymously across the internet. These are largely frustrated losers who are venting. If (and I do not have reason to suspect anyone has gotten this demented) someone were serious about doing me harm, they wouldn’t be sending me lurid warnings. > > But really, the majority of the angry emails threaten nothing but to assault me with prayer and re: his actual intention to violate the host: > [@](#): > > MnIndy: Has the outrcry over your your post given you second thoughts about getting a host and treating “it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web”? > > Myers: The response has done nothing but confirm it: I have to do something. I’m not going to just let this disappear. It’s just so darned weird that they’re demanding that I offer this respect to a symbol that means nothing to me. Something will be done. It won’t be gross. It won’t be totally tasteless, but yeah, **I’ll do something that shows this cracker has no power. This cracker is nothing.** The last bolded statement (bolding mine, of course) makes me think of the time a friend of mine (at 9 years old) stood in a field and yelled “G-D damn it”, and we paused for a minute waiting for God to strike him down. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/334 "2008-07-16T18:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] But I believe it is verifiable by lab testing. Sure there is. Lab tests. And I did see Bricker’s explanation. I carefully considered Bricker’s explanation, and I repeatedly asked Miller to explain his beliefs to me in this thread. I was unconvinced by Bricker’s explanation. [/QUOTE] Then, I think you might have missed the point of what **Bricker** was trying to say. What was it you were unconvinced of? That the host really does undergo some kind of spiritual transformation? If so, then that’s good, because that in no way was what **Bricker** was trying to explain. What he was trying to explain was what Catholics _actually believe_ about transubstantiation…in much the same way as it was explained to you that Muslims do not consider pigs to be holy. No one was ever trying to convince you of the RIGHTNESS or TRUTH of those beliefs, but instead, they were trying to explain to you what the belief consists of. That’s all. To say that you read Bricker’s post and you were unconvinced means that you have not been convinced that Catholic doctrine really holds that Transubstantiation exists. If that is the case, let me assure you that **Bricker** is completely correct in that assertion. > [@](#): > > I never said that. Please re-read my post. The point I’m trying to make is that many people question this kind of stuff their whole lives…it really doesn’t matter when they learned it. And in my experience, people who learned it as adults and came to believe it are much _less_ likely to question it down the road than those who were taught it at a young age. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/335 "2008-07-16T18:23:13Z")
To those that have accused Meyers of lying when he said he received death threats, look [here](http://breakingspells.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/employee-of-1800flowerscom-issues-death-threats-to-professor/#comment-274) for a confession from Charles Kroll that he sent one. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/336 "2008-07-16T18:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] In more general terms, do you really think that most Biblical literalists honestly and objectively weigh the evidence for and against their beliefs before coming to conclusions about whether or not they’re true? [/QUOTE] You know, I don’t really know what their thought processes are. My guess is that they don’t, at least from the standpoint that I would, for instance (my Catholic education didn’t contradict such things as the age of the earth, evolution, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/337 "2008-07-16T18:34:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Then, I think you might have missed the point of what **Bricker** was trying to say. What was it you were unconvinced of? That the host really does undergo some kind of spiritual transformation? If so, then that’s good, because that in no way was what **Bricker** was trying to explain. What he was trying to explain was what Catholics _actually believe_ about transubstantiation…in much the same way as it was explained to you that Muslims do not consider pigs to be holy. No one was ever trying to convince you of the RIGHTNESS or TRUTH of those beliefs, but instead, they were trying to explain to you what the belief consists of. That’s all. To say that you read Bricker’s post and you were unconvinced means that you have not been convinced that Catholic doctrine really holds that Transubstantiation exists. If that is the case, let me assure you that **Bricker** is completely correct in that assertion. [/QUOTE] I understand the Bricker was not really trying to convince anybody of anything with that post, so saying that I was unconvinced was probably not the best choice of words. I understand Bricker’s explanation of the Eucharist, and I disagree with it. Specifically, the statement he made: “[Catholics believe] The bread’s physical characteristics don’t change one iota; the underlying substance of the bread, it’s essential character, is what changes.” I don’t believe this. I do understand that Catholics do believe it, and I understand that Catholics believe that it does not require my belief to be true. So I have made an effort to understand your belief, and I remain unconvinced that it has any merit. Is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/338 "2008-07-16T18:50:40Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] So I have made an effort to understand your belief, and I remain unconvinced that it has any merit. Is that fair? [/QUOTE] He wasn’t trying to convince you it had any merit. He was merely explaining what the belief was. What’s so hard about that? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/339 "2008-07-16T18:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] I understand the Bricker was not really trying to convince anybody of anything with that post, so saying that I was unconvinced was probably not the best choice of words. I understand Bricker’s explanation of the Eucharist, and I disagree with it. Specifically, the statement he made: “[Catholics believe] The bread’s physical characteristics don’t change one iota; the underlying substance of the bread, it’s essential character, is what changes.” I don’t believe this. I do understand that Catholics do believe it, and I understand that Catholics believe that it does not require my belief to be true. So I have made an effort to understand your belief, and I remain unconvinced that it has any merit. Is that fair? [/QUOTE] It’s certainly fair that you believe it has no merit. I would be surprised if you thought it did. The point is that you are comparing one statement, which regards a point of fact about what Muslims believe (that is, not questioning the Truth of the belief), with another statement which regards an actual profession of Catholic belief (that is, questioning the Truth of the belief). Two different and non-analogous things. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147/340 "2008-07-16T19:03:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] He wasn’t trying to convince you it had any merit. He was merely explaining what the belief was. What’s so hard about that? [/QUOTE] _Sigh._ Please read the first phrase of the post you are responding to. It is: _“I understand that Bricker was not really trying to convince anybody of anything”_ So yes, I am aware that he wasn’t trying to convince me it has merit. I understand he was merely explaining what the belief was. Now please try to understand what I’m trying to say, which is that statements that I have made no effort to understand the Eucharist are not true; I have in fact made such attempts. I was specifically responding to Sarafeena when she said _“It doesn’t take a very open-minded person to accept a brief education about what a religion believes.”_ I was explaining that I had read Bricker’s post. In fact, if you look at the post, I quoted the above sentence of Sarafeena’s post immediately before I made the statement, with the apparently pie-in-the-sky hope that that would make it clear that that was the specific point I was responding to. I have been accused a number of times of not knowing the other side, and it looked like that was where Sarafeena was going, so I tried to refute it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-kidnaps-the-eucharist-pz-myers-to-the-rescue/456147.md?page=18)