So let’s issue death threats! That’ll really show our Brotherly Love.
Really, the whole damn thing is about idolatry by Catholics anyway. Instead of the Golden Calf, it’s the Golden Cracker.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I think it’s harmless. You think threatening to kill somebody for it is acceptable?
Incidentally, my oldest daughter just took her First Communion a few months ago. We went to some kind of preparatory class for parents at her school beforehand and one of the teachers there informed us very seriously and worriedly about Satanists who steal hosts to desecrate them later. She talked about people stomping on or otherwise desecrating these wafers like itwas people killing babies.
Later, at home, my lifelong Catholic wife laughed about it thought it was ridiculous. According to her way of thinking, the whole transubstantiation thing is an internal and personal experience, and those people really are just getting their jollies from spitting on a cracker. She also points out that it can’t do any damage to God, so why should she care? At worst, some people may be hurting their own souls, “karma,” whatever (especially if they’re Catholic and really believe the Host to be the Corpus Christi, but they’re not harming Catholics and they’re not harming God.
[/QUOTE]
And people standing quietly outside a Synagogue holding up Holocaust denial posters and Nazi flags aren’t harming anyone. Not really.
Of course, death threats aren’t acceptable. But you can’t publically crap on people’s faith and not expect some reaction.
But it doesn’t really hurt anyone- so hey, maybe the Quran desecrations that U.S. military personnel have been accused of are A-OK also.
[QUOTE= Diogenes]
You think threatening to kill somebody for it is acceptable?
[/QUOTE]
Of course I don’t. Where did you get the idea that I did?
[QUOTE= Diogenes]
According to her way of thinking, the whole transubstantiation thing is an internal and personal experience, and those people really are just getting their jollies from spitting on a cracker. She also points out that it can’t do any damage to God, so why should she care? At worst, some people may be hurting their own souls, “karma,” whatever (especially if they’re Catholic and really believe the Host to be the Corpus Christi, but they’re not harming Catholics and they’re not harming God.
[/QUOTE]
And if your wife ran the world, then it would all be OK, wouldn’t it?
[QUOTE= Diogenes]
It’s not stealing if the give it to you, and it did not harm or disrupt anyone else’s experience or practice in any way.
[/QUOTE]
Except you know that you’re not being “given” the Eucharist as a possessory thing, and you know that leaving with it is outside the scope of the transaction, so where are you really going with this?
[QUOTE=Jillyvn]
Apparently, it is stealing/kidnapping if you remove it from the Church grounds without eating it (?)… I’m not a Catholic, so I’m not up on the protocol.
[/QUOTE]
It’s sacraligious for Catholics, but it’s not against the law.
That’s a crime you dunce. They gave him the cracker freely.
If the church and its followers had said “that guy is a real asshole and he should give the cracker back” then I would probably agree with them, as ridiculous as their beliefs are. But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re calling it a hate crime. They are threatening to fucking kill him. You get that? They want to fucking kill him. Let me repeat. They want to fucking kill him. That’s why Meyers (and I) are being so critical of them. Did Jesus send death treats to people? Which chapter and verse in the bible discuss death threats? That’s why they are the objects of scorn, because in their overzealous protection of their insane beliefs, they violate the very beliefs they profess to hold sacred. Which do you think Jesus would be more offended by? Stealing a cracker, or sending somebody a death threat?
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Then she’s not much of a Catholic, and is not morally allowed to receive the Eucharist herself.
[/QUOTE]
I’d say that’s not your judgment to make.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Then she’s not much of a Catholic, and is not morally allowed to receive the Eucharist herself.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t say that but I will say that she either does not fully understand or accept the traditional Catholic understanding of Transubstantiation.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Why, because he did something that is against your religion?
[/quote]
Can you really be this stupid?
Well. Asked and answered, I guess.
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Of course I don’t. Where did you get the idea that I did?
[/quote]
Well you got upset about the wrong thing then. You reacted to the trivial offense of stealing a communion wafer as if you thought that was the real crime (and with an implication that Myers deserved to be harrassed).
Probably, but that’s neither here nor there. I was using her as my own Catholic focus group. If she’s not offended, why should I be?
There’s no law that says you have to swallow it, and there’s no harm done to anyone or anything if you don’t, so where are you going with this? Tell me specifically who or what gets hurt.
[QUOTE= Shirley]
That’s a crime you dunce. They gave him the cracker freely.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, did you happen to read about “scope” a few lines up?
Probably not.
[QUOTE= Diogenes]
Well you got upset about the wrong thing then. You reacted to the trivial offense of stealing a communion wafer as if you thought that was the real crime (and with an implication that Myers deserved to be harrassed).
[/QUOTE]
Where did I imply that myers deserved to be harassed?
And the offense is not trivial if it offends a great number of people.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
That’s a crime you dunce. They gave him the cracker freely.
If the church and its followers had said “that guy is a real asshole and he should give the cracker back” then I would probably agree with them, as ridiculous as their beliefs are. But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re calling it a hate crime. They are threatening to fucking kill him. You get that? They want to fucking kill him. Let me repeat. They want to fucking kill him. That’s why Meyers (and I) are being so critical of them. Did Jesus send death treats to people? Which chapter and verse in the bible discuss death threats? That’s why they are the objects of scorn, because in their overzealous protection of their insane beliefs, they violate the very beliefs they profess to hold sacred. Which do you think Jesus would be more offended by? Stealing a cracker, or sending somebody a death threat?
[/QUOTE]
Why do we have to choose sides? Why does this have to become another “my side is holier than yours” battle? Obviously the Catholics who reacted that way are being hypocritical douchebags. Their behavior is vile and should be criticized. That doesn’t negate the fact that what the guy did was an asshole move.
Whatever. Lump all the crazy zealots together with all the nice Catholics if you want. Hell, lump them in with all theists. It’s certainly SOP on this board.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Then she’s not much of a Catholic, and is not morally allowed to receive the Eucharist herself.
[/QUOTE]
Judgemental much? If you really have a grievance about it, you can write her archdiocese. I’m sure they’ll care.
[QUOTE= Diogenes]
There’s no law that says you have to swallow it, and there’s no harm done to anyone or anything if you don’t, so where are you going with this? Tell me specifically who or what gets hurt.
[/QUOTE]
Just because you can’t see the harm doesn’t mean the harm does not exist. And I guess you didn’t read about “scope” either.
[QUOTE=FriarTed]
I wouldn’t say that but I will say that she either does not fully understand or accept the traditional Catholic understanding of Transubstantiation.
[/QUOTE]
My wife has her own interpretation of a lot of Catholic doctrine.She is far from alone among Catholics.
As crazy as I think religious people are, calling stealing a cracker a “hate crime” is way beyond the pale. It’s absolutely batshit insane.
[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Ask your wife & kids.
[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
That’s a crime you dunce. They gave him the cracker freely.
If the church and its followers had said “that guy is a real asshole and he should give the cracker back” then I would probably agree with them, as ridiculous as their beliefs are. But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re calling it a hate crime. They are threatening to fucking kill him. … That’s why Meyers (and I) are being so critical of them. ?
[/QUOTE]
PZ Myers is not “being critical”. He is urging people to steal Consecrated Wafers and send them to him so he can desecrate them. He is a de facto Diabolist masquerading as a scientific rationalist.
Also, they did not give the jerk the cracker freely. They gave it to him for a specific purpose- to reverently eat. He decided to make it a game of keep-away.
Death threats are evil & criminal, I totally agree.
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Just because you can’t see the harm doesn’t mean the harm does not exist. And I guess you didn’t read about “scope” either.
[/QUOTE]
There’s no harm. You’re fucking crazy.
Just…wow.
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Hey, did you happen to read about “scope” a few lines up?
Probably not.
Where did I imply that myers deserved to be harassed?
And the offense is not trivial if it offends a great number of people.
[/QUOTE]
So what if it offends people? Who says you have a right to not be offended? Any declarative statement about ultimate truth is going to offend people. No one can point out how smuggling home a communion wafer actually hurts anybody, though can they? Offending someone does not harm them.