# Student loan forgiveness: A poll **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138 "2021-01-21T21:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/101 "2021-01-22T18:07:39Z")
Is that a joke? I’m sure the guy who does the plumbing on the ISS makes good money too, but the median salary for a welder (from the site you linked) is around 40k. > **[Fabricator Ranks Among Best Jobs of 2023](https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/fabricator)** > > See how fabricator stacks up against other occupations. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/102 "2021-01-22T18:11:09Z")
And at either 40k or 55k you are going to struggle to give your family a middle class lifestyle. I made more than that the year I graduated college with an Econ major and Stats minor, and I have a desk job that’s a hell of a lot easier than plumbing or welding (I should know - my father is a general contractor and I did both welding and plumbing working summers for him in high school). If my kid had a passion for working with their hands, I’d support them if they wanted either of those jobs; but I would never guide them to those careers if I wanted them to have a better and easier life than I did. ---
**Author:** ![MustangSal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mustangsal/32/6327_2.png) [@MustangSal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MustangSal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/103 "2021-01-22T18:12:33Z")
40 k isn’t bad depending on where you live. Some plumbers work for roto rooter and some get their contractor license. Some welders might make 40k, some make 300k Some college graduates make 40k, some make 300k ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/104 "2021-01-22T18:18:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Can you give your family a middle class lifestyle as a welder or plumber? > > Oh gawd yes, they likely make more money that a liberal arts degree You would be wrong, according to this link; while some majors, including liberal arts majors, have a lower median starting salary, the mid career median salary of every major is higher than the cited median salary of either welders or plumbers: > **[Which College Degrees Get the Highest Salaries?](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-salaries-college-degrees/)** > > How do different college degrees compare for earning potential? This chart uses a data set from 1.2 million past students to compare 50 different majors. ---
**Author:** ![MustangSal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mustangsal/32/6327_2.png) [@MustangSal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MustangSal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/105 "2021-01-22T18:21:20Z")
Fine. Skilled trades also have potential, quite reasonable potential, for middle class life ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/106 "2021-01-22T18:29:37Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think we need to really reassess what students are gaining from their university experience. There are probably plenty of people enrolled in universities who would be better served working in a well-rounded technical school or apprenticeship program on campuses that don’t build multi-million dollar dormitories and intramural sports complexes, and aren’t loaded with bureaucracies. I don’t disagree that our entire education system needs to be reevaluated and probably rebuilt. But that is not something that the students can do. They are given the choice of picking up a massive loan, or being stuck fighting over a dwindling number of low wage jobs the rest of their lives. Tuition inflation is a problem, and that needs to be addressed. But blaming and punishing the students for the system is not the solution. > [@Babale](#): > > Can you give your family a middle class lifestyle as a welder or plumber? A welder or a plumber _can_ make a reasonable wage, but it’s pretty difficult, sometimes dangerous work. And I don’t think that there are enough of those sorts of jobs to go around if everyone who is not able to pay their own way through college goes into them. We used to have a much larger number of blue collar jobs that paid well enough to support a middle class family. That is no longer the case, and the cost of getting an education is only going up. > [@Pleonast](#): > > My “20 hours minimum wage pays for tuition, room, and board” is a suggestion for the student’s cost for attending a community college. I don’t intend to mean that students must work. They could get help from parents, spouses, scholarships, etc. Even if a student had to rely entirely on loans to pay for community college, at that cost the loans will be reasonable and easily repayable. I could get behind that. So long as the debt left is not an insurmountable obstacle that keeps them from being able to move forward with their lives until they are in their 30’s. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Children’s education should be free, but I think adults should pay if they can’t get scholarships. Of course, that’s contingent on the cost being reasonable. Heh, as I get older, I start to wonder when someone actually should be an adult. I don’t think that an 18 year old has the maturity and experience to make such decisions that will be affecting them for the next couple decades. > [@Pleonast](#): > > On the other hand, I’m in favor of a universal basic income (UBI). Which I’d put at somewhere around half-time at minimum wage. 😃 If we’re going to subsidize adults, we should subsidize _all_ adults. But UBI is a taller mountain. I’m also all in favor of this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/107 "2021-01-22T18:37:28Z")
No I would not be wrong. The question wasnt “do plumbers, on average earn less that degreed workers”, it was “Can you give your family a middle class lifestyle as a welder or plumber?” and since the media for a plumber is 55K or 59K on my cite lower, and your chart shows 50K as right in the middle of the green (median) up thru art history, they can. And the 25% percentile for plumbers is $41K ,whereas the 25% for many liberal arts seems to be around 25-30K. Not to mention a Union plumber can earn up to $222,679. [https://www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-union-plumber-in-los-angeles-ca](https://www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-union-plumber-in-los-angeles-ca) So, while a Engineering degree _is_ a path to larger earnings, a art history degree may not be. With two years in a free (or close to it) community college, you can come out earning $40K or so, compared to maybe $25k after four years and a large debt. This article makes it clear that trade school can be a excellent choice: > **[The Stigma of Choosing Trade School Over College](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/choosing-trade-school-over-college/584275/)** > > When college is held up as the one true path to success, parents—especially highly educated ones—might worry when their children opt for vocational school instead. and then there is this: Y_es, many college graduates make more money—but [less than half](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_326.10.asp) of students finish the degrees they start._ [Trade School vs. College Degree Salaries: Who Makes More? - College Finance](https://collegefinance.com/plan/trade-school-vs-college-degree-salaries-who-makes-more#:~:text=Here's%20why%3A,jobs%20pay%20more%20than%20%2459%2C000). _Even with these averages, trade school can still be a lucrative path. Here’s why:_ _First, while college graduates earn more, on average, there are many occupations where trade workers earn more than degree holders. For example, the average secondary school teacher earns just $59,000. All seven of the highest-paying vocational jobs pay more than $59,000. So, averages do not tell the entire story._ _Second, average earnings do not consider the difference between salaried and hourly workers. Hourly workers may be eligible for overtime and other incentives that companies generally do not give to salaried employees. Also, trade workers usually belong to unions that advocate for better wages and working conditions. Because nonunion workers earn just [80%](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf) of what unionized workers earn, joining a union is another way to close the gap between college and trade school earnings._ _Third, the numbers do not consider the fact that trade school graduates will have more earning years. A future doctor might have high earning potential, but it will take at least 11 years to become a doctor. Because trade school takes far less time, graduates will have many more years to earn money._ _Finally, these numbers do not consider loans. According to the Federal Reserve, the average American pays nearly [$400 per month](https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/you-wont-believe-how-many-student-loans-are-in-default-2019-12-09) in student loan debt. Because a trade school certification costs far less than a bachelor’s degree, trade workers will spend far less of their income repaying debt. Therefore, they will have more disposable monthly income. This will make them better able to buy homes and meet other important life goals._ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/108 "2021-01-22T18:46:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A welder or a plumber _can_ make a reasonable wage, but it’s pretty difficult, sometimes dangerous work. And I don’t think that there are enough of those sorts of jobs to go around if everyone who is not able to pay their own way through college goes into them. > > We used to have a much larger number of blue collar jobs that paid well enough to support a middle class family. That is no longer the case, and the cost of getting an education is only going up. That trend (disappearing middle class blue collar jobs) will only continue and accelerate as increased automation pushes more and more jobs out of the labor force. There are 480,000 plumbers and 400,000 welders in the US compared to 3.5 MILLION truck drivers. Incidentally the median pay for truck drivers is 40k, so right around the same ballpark as plumbers and welders. Those jobs will disappear, and we better have a plan for that NOW, not when robots are doing our driving. Welding and plumbing may be more difficult to replace, but the most expensive and dangerous welding jobs, like your 300k a year underwater welding career, will go first. A salary of 300k sounds great. But it also gives your employer a huge incentive to replace you with a robot. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/109 "2021-01-22T18:47:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t think that an 18 year old has the maturity and experience to make such decisions that will be affecting them for the next couple decades. Absolutely. That’s why large and unforgiveable student loans are unconscionable. I believe 18-year-old people are adult enough to make their own decisions and face the consequences of them. But no one should be able to permanently indenture themselves. That’s why we have bankruptcy law instead of indentured servitude and debtors’ prisons. And even if student loans could be mitigated by bankruptcy, their size is not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/110 "2021-01-22T19:06:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A welder or a plumber _can_ make a reasonable wage, but it’s pretty difficult, sometimes dangerous work. And I don’t think that there are enough of those sorts of jobs to go around if everyone who is not able to pay their own way through college goes into them. Auto mechanic, carpenter, contractor, handyman, Licensed practical nurse, LVN, dental hygienist, HVAC tech, all sorts of physical therapists, policeman, paralegal, the list goes on. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/111 "2021-01-22T19:16:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 3.5 MILLION truck drivers. There are also 10 million retail workers and 5 million food service workers who will be out of work in fairly short order. Those jobs don’t pay as well, but even they will be unavailable. You have about 12 million in manufacturing, which is a mixed bag of pay scales and future prospects, but a significant number of those jobs will be eliminated as well. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Licensed practical nurse, LVN, dental hygienist, HVAC tech, all sorts of physical therapists, policeman, paralegal Those do all require at least a 2 year degree. (Police not always, but in many jurisdictions, yes.) But, in general, most of that list is shrinking. It’s not going to be able to absorb the number of displaced workers, not even close. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/112 "2021-01-22T19:20:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are also 10 million retail workers and 5 million food service workers who will be out of work in fairly short order. Those jobs don’t pay as well, but even they will be unavailable. > > You have about 12 million in manufacturing, which is a mixed bag of pay scales and future prospects, but a significant number of those jobs will be eliminated as well. Not to mention automation supplementing white collar workers like accountants, lawyers, even doctors or nurses. Those jobs won’t go away completely, but one worker will do the work of dozens or hundreds in a fraction of the time. These kinds of massive changes have in the past been accompanied by huge social upheavals if not outright political revolutions (which almost always led to increase death and suffering in the short term at least). We would be foolish not to prepare ourselves, so I suspect we won’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/113 "2021-01-22T19:25:28Z")
Yes, but _not_ a expensive four year degree, they are considered trade jobs. Here in CA, and in several other states, a community college degree is damn near close to free. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/114 "2021-01-22T19:32:00Z")
Here in Ohio, it would be about $14k just for tuition. That doesn’t include books, various fees, no the cost of living while going to school. That’s still much better than a 4 year, but it still puts you in a less secure and less lucrative position. It’s going to get even more interesting as AI keeps improving, and suddenly all these white collar jobs start disappearing. So far, it’s been pretty much manual labor that has been going away, but once computers can _think_, that’s gonna get very interesting. Personally, a large part of the decision in choosing my current path is that the industry that I am in will be one of the very very last to be automated. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/115 "2021-01-22T19:51:48Z")
Ohio: Columbus State Community College/Undergraduate tuition and fees In-state tuition 4,588 USD . = $9000 for a two year degree California: > **[California’s new ‘free college’ law for community colleges covers more than...](https://edsource.org/2019/californias-new-free-college-law-for-community-colleges-covers-more-than-tuition/608612)** > > California community college students are getting free tuition, laptops and textbooks as colleges spend $46 million in state “free tuition” funds. $1,380 per year for students taking a full load of 30 units.= $2800 for a two year degree BUT: [California joins a handful of other states that provide community college tuition-free | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/us/california-free-community-college-tuition-trnd/index.html#:~:text=California%20will%20provide%20free%20tuition,state%20budget%20to%20%2442.6%20million). _California will provide free tuition for two years of [community college](http://www.cnn.com/2019/03/06/perspectives/women-stem-community-college/index.html) to first-time, full-time California students._ Now, I think all Community colleges should be very close to free, in every state, so we get more people in the trades and paraprofessional. This would also make many 4 year degrees cheaper if people could get it out of their heads that attending UCLA (e.g.) for the first two years is better than say Harbor Community College. I dont want to hear whiners that their 4 year college loan bill is $60000 when half of that was from the first two years at a overpriced four year college. Screw them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/116 "2021-01-22T19:56:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s still much better than a 4 year, but it still puts you in a less secure and less lucrative position. No, we have proven otherwise. In fact “less secure” is very clearly false. You get a two year nursing cert, and when you leave with your cert there are about a dozen hospitals, etc lined up with tables trying to hire you. Can someone say that with their art appreciation degree? Now yeah, you get a _engineering_ degree- which is unlikely because of the drop out rate- and sure, you can get a nice position easier. But a four year liberal arts degree is no longer a automatic passport to a solid job. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/117 "2021-01-22T20:04:41Z")
You keep picking on incredibly niche liberal arts majors, but by far the most common major for a bachelor’s degree is Business, and a business degree is going to be much more useful and secure higher paying employment than either liberal arts or going to trade school. > [@](#): > > Of the 1,956,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2016–17, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (381,000), health professions and related programs (238,000), social sciences and history (159,000), psychology (117,000), biological and biomedical sciences (117,000), engineering (116,000), communication, journalism, and related programs (94,000), and visual and performing arts (91,000) > **[Fast Facts: Most popular majors (37)](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=37)** > > The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/118 "2021-01-22T20:25:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In-state tuition 4,588 USD . = $9000 for a two year degree I was going off my more local Cincinnati State. Not going to save much if I have to drive 2 hours everyday to attend classes. > [@DrDeth](#): > > This would also make many 4 year degrees cheaper if people could get it out of their heads that attending UCLA (e.g.) for the first two years is better than say Harbor Community College. These thoughts don’t originate in the student’s heads. They come from the fact that they are told that this is the case. They are told this by their teachers, their guidance counselors, and by the colleges themselves. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont want to hear whiners that their 4 year college loan bill is $60000 when half of that was from the first two years at a overpriced four year college. Screw them? Seems harsh. No screwing of those who encouraged and cajoled them into taking that action? These are 17-18 year olds making decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives, and yet, those who should be more responsible, those who should be guiding them to make these better choices, are completely left without so much as a finger wag. When I was graduating from high school, I was never even given information about community colleges and branch campuses. I was told that I pretty much had to go to Ohio State or to UC, or I wouldn’t ever be able to get a job. It didn’t work out that way, as my parents refused to help me out, and until you are 25-26, financial aid assumes that your parents will, but I didn’t even know that there were other options. I really don’t think that it’s fair to blame the student for following the path that others have laid out for them. If a road, without warning, suddenly goes off a cliff, do you blame the drivers who didn’t see it coming, or the engineers that designed it? > [@DrDeth](#): > > You get a two year nursing cert, and when you leave with your cert there are about a dozen hospitals, etc lined up with tables trying to hire you. So, we are all going to be nurses and paralegals now? Nursing is a pretty hard job, with crazy long hours and stress. It’s a pretty high burnout industry, with very high turnover. As it is right now, there are not enough spots in schools with qualified instructors, and so the waiting list to even get into nursing school is getting longer. There are only about 5 million nurses in the US. That profession is not going to be able to absorb the tens of millions who are going to be find their industries obsolete in the next couple decades. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Can someone say that with their art appreciation degree? Depends on whether they do landscapes and still life. For example, giant fields of straw and hay. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/119 "2021-01-22T20:27:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > These thoughts don’t originate in the student’s heads. They come from the fact that they are told that this is the case. They are told this by their teachers, their guidance counselors, and by the colleges themselves. As well as by the people making decisions on who to hire when it comes to white collar jobs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138/120 "2021-01-22T20:29:23Z")
Right, if a business refuses to consider anyone without a degree from a particular school, even if it’s not actually a relevant qualification, then why is that the student’s fault? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loan-forgiveness-a-poll/931138.md?page=7)