# Student loans are the work of Satan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323 "2014-09-12T18:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/21 "2014-09-12T21:22:23Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > No. This is from “An Empirical Assessment Of Student Loan Discharges And The Undue Hardship Standard” by Jason Iuliano at Harvard University - Law School - Alumni; Princeton University - Department of Politics, July 24, 2011 > [@](#): > > For years, academics have argued that the undue hardship standard for discharging student loans in bankruptcy is both unduly burdensome and applied in an inconsistent manner. By reviewing a nationwide sample of student loan bankruptcy disputes, this study shows that neither criticism is warranted. First, judges grant a hardship discharge to nearly forty percent of the debtors who seek one. Second, successful debtors differ from their unsuccessful counterparts in three important respects. They are (1) less likely to be employed, (2) more likely to have a medical hardship, and (3) more likely to have lower annual incomes the year before they filed for bankruptcy. > The real failing of the student loan discharge process is lack of participation by those in need. Incredibly, only 0.1 percent of student loan debtors who have filed for bankruptcy attempt to discharge their student loans. That statistic is even more surprising in light of this Article’s finding that a debtor does not need to hire an attorney to be successful. In fact, debtors without attorneys were just as likely to receive discharges as debtors with attorneys were. Ultimately, the low rate of filing shows that, although the system is broken, many of its flaws stem from a failing not previously discussed in the literature. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/22 "2014-09-12T21:30:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Same reason you can’t get out of income-tax debt by declaring bankruptcy: It is incorrect to say that federal tax owed is not dischargeable in bankruptcy as a blanket rule (though there are restrictions). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/23 "2014-09-12T21:30:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > God knows I think government involvement in this would be a disaster. > [@Kimballkid](#): > > Government involvement in what? The student loan program which is a program of the FEDERAL government (with some private exceptions). The universities and colleges which a lot are part of the state government? That’s almost as funny as “Keep your government hands off my Medicare.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/24 "2014-09-12T21:49:09Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > I have student loans and I am very glad they cannot be easily forgiven. Here is why: it helps to lower the interest rate. > > The loans are no-collateral loans. > > If you get a loan for a house or a car, and then don’t pay it, they come and repossess those things. This helps keep the interest rate down. > > But for education loans, there is nothing for them to repossess… Yeah, but what about Zombie National Back where they reposes your _ **BRAAAAAAAAINS** _ if you default on the loan? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/25 "2014-09-12T22:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I have student loans and I am very glad they cannot be easily forgiven. Here is why: it helps to lower the interest rate. It’s like preferring herpes over AIDS. You read some amazing things on the internet. You know most of the world looks in horror at the American student loans system, and most of them don’t burden themselves with such a thing in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/26 "2014-09-12T22:44:29Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > You read some amazing things on the internet. You know most of the world looks in horror at the American student loans system, and most of them don’t burden themselves with such a thing in the first place. And yet more foreign students come to the United States to study than anywhere else in the world. Not that I think the student loan system is particularly great, but the fact is the vast majority of students have a reasonable (or zero) amount of student debt and invest it in a useful education. The stories you hear of people taking out $75k in private federally-backed loans so they can get a postmodernist puppetry degree at a New England SLAC are not actually that common. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/27 "2014-09-12T22:45:24Z")
The current system sucks, but if federal student loans are bankrupting you, you are doing it wrong. Income based repayment WILL keep your loans, however high, capped to a reasonable percent of your income. And they benefit even people with pretty decent incomes. After 20 years (or 10 if you work in government or nonprofits) the loans are forgiven (though you will owe taxes on the forgiven portion). Few people use income based repayment, and it’s kind of baffling. But anyone railing about how federal student loan debt has ruined their life is either hamming it up or extremely Ill-informed. FWIW the average layman’s theory of what is and is not a useful degree is generally way off. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/28 "2014-09-12T22:52:04Z")
**MrQwertasd** , out of curiosity, who would pay for the education for people living in your [anarchy zones](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=733912)? I can’t imagine that private universities and banks, completely ungoverned, would provide student loans less onerous than those subsidized by the US government. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/29 "2014-09-12T22:56:05Z")
> [@hyden](#): > > There should be restrictions on what these institutions can charge. Unlike some industries, there is no way to rationalize the increase in costs over the last 20-30 years, other than ‘we did because we can’. With easy credit, consumers are shielded from the “true” cost of things, and prices can escalate steeply. Similar to US market health insurance, but that’s for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/30 "2014-09-12T23:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t imagine that private universities and banks, completely ungoverned, would provide student loans less onerous than those subsidized by the US government. God, I can. You could dump all that fractional reserve sorcery, ignore national debts because there is no nation, crowd fund it, do it for love, learn from your peers, do without universities altogether, do without money, do it with bitcoin, use an Islamic non-usurous bank, run through a field naked. Anything. The UK tripled it’s fees only because the dickhead government kow-towed to the banks who destroyed a chunk of the economy - which kind of proves that the state is already half anarchic and lawless anyway - which admittedly isn’t a good argument for anarchy as far as that goes, but in this case government serves the banks who are the hierarchy. It’s a good question, I shall look into this. Initial research finds - [http://www.newuniversity.ca/inspiring-schools/52-canada/93-anarchist-free-university](http://www.newuniversity.ca/inspiring-schools/52-canada/93-anarchist-free-university) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/31 "2014-09-12T23:37:32Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > **MrQwertasd** , out of curiosity, who would pay for the education for people living in your [anarchy zones](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=733912)? I can’t imagine that private universities and banks, completely ungoverned, would provide student loans less onerous than those subsidized by the US government. Student loans would be the work of Santa. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/32 "2014-09-12T23:41:06Z")
Don’t mix up me threads plz ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/33 "2014-09-13T04:53:54Z")
If student loans are the work of Satan, shouldn’t college applicants refuse to accept them? If you make a pact with Satan, you shouldn’t complain about the terms when he comes to collect. Seems to me the OP is okay with people borrowing money. It only becomes wrong when it’s time to pay the money back. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/34 "2014-09-13T05:29:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If student loans are the work of Satan, shouldn’t college applicants refuse to accept them? If you make a pact with Satan, you shouldn’t complain about the terms when he comes to collect. > > Seems to me the OP is okay with people borrowing money. It only becomes wrong when it’s time to pay the money back. It’s such a shame that people don’t know any better, I guess if you’re born into a debt based society then you think of it as normal. Bit like people born in a dysfunctional family think daily beatings are normal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/35 "2014-09-13T06:17:07Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s such a shame that people don’t know any better, I guess if you’re born into a debt based society then you think of it as normal. Bit like people born in a dysfunctional family think daily beatings are normal. If everyone else believes in debt, then it is normal. That’s what normal means. People borrow money to go to college because they expect they will earn more money with a college degree. You may have some imaginary alternative for paying for tuition, but no college is accepting imaginary money at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/36 "2014-09-13T06:58:07Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > You could dump all that fractional reserve sorcery Do you seriously propose full reserve banking, or are you just vomiting talking points? > [@](#): > > ignore national debts because there is no nation Well, that answers that question. > [@](#): > > crowd fund it, do it for love, learn from your peers, do without universities altogether, do without money, do it with bitcoin, use an Islamic non-usurous bank, run through a field naked. Anything. Anything except doing things which work at a basic level. Look, the current system is imperfect. It’s like a broken leg. The standard of care for a human with a broken leg isn’t amputation, nor is it total amputation of everything below the diaphragm and replacement of all of the major organs down there with pixie dust and bullshit. The standard of care is to fix the leg, make sure you aren’t causing any other problems, and then do therapy to make sure the whole system has healed correctly. You, on the other hand, are waving a bone saw and a gas can around, raving about how any imperfection can only be cured in the cleansing fire of total destruction. “Rage quit” isn’t a valid political stance. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/37 "2014-09-13T07:12:29Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s like preferring herpes over AIDS. {…} > [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > {…} You could dump all that fractional reserve sorcery, ignore national debts because there is no nation, crowd fund it, do it for love, learn from your peers, do without universities altogether, do without money, do it with bitcoin, use an Islamic non-usurous bank, run through a field naked. Anything. {…} It would be quicker if you just listed the things you do _actually_ understand. Just saying. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/38 "2014-09-13T10:56:16Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It would be quicker if you just listed the things you do _actually_ understand. > > Just saying. > > CMC fnord! For. The. Win. (About the only thing left is to ask if he wants his BBQ sauce Regular, Carolina style, Texas style, or a St Louis Dry Rub) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/39 "2014-09-13T14:16:59Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Why should student loans be forgiven in the first place? Exactly. If the loan is “forgiven,” it still needs to be paid back by… someone. Who will pay it back? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/40 "2014-09-13T16:05:18Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > For. The. Win. > > Carolina style) North or South…there is a difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323.md?page=3)