# Student loans are the work of Satan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323 "2014-09-12T18:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/61 "2014-09-18T13:47:32Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > How older and wiser people do it > [Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn | Times Higher Education (THE)](http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/feature-germanys-great-tuition-fees-u-turn/2011168.fullarticle) I’m not sure that I would be using Germany as a historical model for many things. The US is considered the top destination globally for higher education. With the most diversified university system and the best education…which is why so many foreign students come to the US for their higher education. If you want it to be free, then go somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/62 "2014-09-18T15:01:15Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > If you take a loan for something, you’re not just investing in yourself, you’re investing in the loaner. You also lose your sovereignty by being in debt. “sovereignty”? Is this related to the “Freemen on the Land” concept? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/63 "2014-09-18T16:53:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > From what I’m reading on the internet, the maximum amount of student loans a student can have today is $31,000. That’s about half the current cost of attendance at many schools, and most students should be making more than that each year. I don’t know where you read that, but it’s absolutely, 100%, no caveats wrong. I have $51,000 in federal student loan debt from the graduate degree I completed this year, and I am luckier than most of my peers in that I have no leftover debt from my undergraduate degree. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/64 "2014-09-18T17:06:10Z")
Right. Your $51,000 was for a graduate degree, for which [there are no limits](https://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized). The $31,000 limitation is for undergraduate degrees for dependent students. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/65 "2014-09-18T17:52:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Right. Your $51,000 was for a graduate degree, for which [there are no limits](https://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized). The $31,000 limitation is for undergraduate degrees for dependent students. … and only applies to direct loans to dependent students. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/66 "2014-09-18T17:56:16Z")
In other words the typical student (who is dependent on his/her parents) should only have $31,000 in loans after receiving an undergraduate degree. He/she can opt to get supplemental private loans, or his/her parents can pursue PLUS loans, but he/she really has to work hard to have more than $31,000 in debt after getting a bachelor’s degree. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/67 "2014-09-18T18:08:32Z")
Well, yeah, but you can’t actually _go_ to anything other than an in-state public university for less than $31K. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/68 "2014-09-18T21:01:54Z")
Are the supplemental private loans also non-forgivable (are they what the OP is complaining about)? ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/69 "2014-09-18T21:34:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is from “An Empirical Assessment Of Student Loan Discharges And The Undue Hardship Standard” by Jason Iuliano at Harvard University - Law School - Alumni; Princeton University - Department of Politics, July 24, 2011 Interesting info, C. I’d challenge this bit though, based on my own personal experience… "The real failing of the student loan discharge process is lack of participation by those in need. Incredibly, only 0.1 percent of student loan debtors who have filed for bankruptcy attempt to discharge their student loans. That statistic is even more surprising in light of this Article’s finding that a debtor does not need to hire an attorney to be successful. In fact, debtors without attorneys were just as likely to receive discharges as debtors with attorneys were. " Student loan discharges are handed off to a separate contracted agency. Mrs. G went through a discharge due to medical disability. The agency rejected every claim we made regardless of medical assessments or her SS-disabled status. We literally had claims and appeals rejected for “improper MM/DD/YYYY” format when a doctor used dashes instead of slashes on a handwritten signature, rejected for “smudgy unreadable fax” of their own small print on their required forms, completely rage-inducing nonsense. It took retaining our own lawyers to pursue a “bad-faith” lawsuit to finally get approval. We’ve heard similar anecdotal personal stories from others and lawyers going through the “process”. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/70 "2014-09-19T16:10:09Z")
**GargoyleWB** Did you feel at all guilty about this? For failing to pay your wife’s debts? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/71 "2014-09-19T17:08:25Z")
This thread reminds me of that **gonzomax** mortgage thread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/72 "2014-09-19T17:10:11Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Did you feel at all guilty about this? For failing to pay your wife’s debts? … seriously? ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/73 "2014-09-19T17:31:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … seriously? Am I asking him if he feels bad that he reneged on an agreement he freely made, that he felt was in his benefit at the time, that you and I and every other taxpayer had to fulfill because he is choosing not to? Yes. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/74 "2014-09-19T17:50:08Z")
There’s a problem with your pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/75 "2014-09-19T17:53:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There’s a problem with your pronouns. That’s the best you’ve got? (And yes, I know it’s his wife.) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/76 "2014-09-19T18:05:13Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > “Rage quit” isn’t a valid political stance. I’m stealing this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/77 "2014-09-19T18:13:47Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > That’s the best you’ve got? > > (And yes, I know it’s his wife.) That’s the entire reason your question is stupid: they’re not _his_ debts. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/78 "2014-09-19T18:39:51Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > **GargoyleWB** > > Did you feel at all guilty about this? For failing to pay your wife’s debts? No. She is not healthy enough for work. Short of putting her in debtor’s prison for failing to bootstrap her way through critical illness, what punishment would you suggest to assuage the guilt? ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/79 "2014-09-20T15:24:17Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > No. She is not healthy enough for work. Short of putting her in debtor’s prison for failing to bootstrap her way through critical illness, what punishment would you suggest to assuage the guilt? Not saying how you should feel. Just curious how you did feel. My entire family was estranged from my father for over a decade for reasons not pertinent here. He died in a nursing home unknown to us, and the state sent my mother a bill for a tad over $70,000. Our lawyer recommend he send a letter telling the state to pound sand and that would have been the end of it. (Mom and dad were still married but she lived in another state, and the lawyer said our state wouldn’t go after an out of state senior citizen over this.) But we decided this was our debt, not others to pay, and my sister, mother and I just started paying as much as we could on this and paid it off in about two years. We aren’t rich, but we’d been taught to pay our way and not push our debt onto others. Not saying we are better or worse than others. Just curious where we stand in relation to others. Very truly hope that your wife is doing better. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323/80 "2014-09-21T12:39:49Z")
Student loans are not the device of Satan but of enterprising individuals seeking profit (both parties). Industry wouldn’t exist otherwise. IMO, student loans are one of very few enterprises that benefit both buyer and seller. Of course the lenders make money, but the recipients are given access to opportunities which they would never realize otherwise. Yes, you do have to eventually pay it back, with interest (small if you’re smart and responsible), but it’s usually proportional to the money making opportunity granted you via those loans. For instance, medical school loans are steep, but align with the expected salaries of the profession. What you’re probably talking about are the idiots who take out $8,000 per semester for a creative writing degree and drop half of their classes and take 12 semesters to finish a degree with low demand for untalented individuals, which they are, likely. Then they are perplexed that they can’t pay back their loan earning $7 an hour as a bank teller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-loans-are-the-work-of-satan/698323.md?page=5)