# Student Suspended for Refusing Pledge of Allegiance **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 8, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994 "2014-05-08T18:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/1 "2014-05-08T18:47:12Z")
15 year old sophomore student refuses to stand for Pledge of Allegiance with classmates, so principal gives him 2 days of in school suspension. [http://www.kvue.com/news/state/258460201.html](http://www.kvue.com/news/state/258460201.html) Offhand this would seem to violate the 1st Amendment, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/2 "2014-05-08T18:47:41Z")
This will not end well for the school ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/3 "2014-05-08T18:52:24Z")
It depends on the student’s behavior. Short of completely disrupting the classroom to the point that the student has to be referred to the principal’s office, there’s no reason to suspend a student. The trouble is, in issues like this, the student and their family can tell their story all day long, but the administration isn’t allowed to say a thing until/unless it goes to court. So, it’s hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/4 "2014-05-08T19:00:11Z")
Of course this article only has his side of the story. As written it seems to be a clear violation of his rights. I guess they could say he was being told to stand but not forced to say anything. I don’t think that kind of quibbling will work but I’m not the judge that would he the case. However if during his refusal he was disruptive or disrespectful to the teacher they would be justified in the suspension. I tend to think it was more the school/teacher overreacting but without knowing exactly how it went down its not possible to say who is right. Or what phouka said. That’s what happens when I get distracted when posting. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/5 "2014-05-08T19:08:31Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > It depends on the student’s behavior. Short of completely disrupting the classroom to the point that the student has to be referred to the principal’s office, there’s no reason to suspend a student. The trouble is, in issues like this, the student and their family can tell their story all day long, but the administration isn’t allowed to say a thing until/unless it goes to court. So, it’s hard to say. The adminupistration can certainly talk, in the abstract, about what they require of the students during the pledge. Are they required to stand? Are they required to recite? If they state their policy allows non disruptive siting quietly, we can get the idea that this kid did something more. I’m doubting it, though. He story rings true to me. I expect an apology to the kid within the next 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/6 "2014-05-08T19:11:07Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > 15 year old sophomore student refuses to stand for Pledge of Allegiance with classmates, so principal gives him 2 days of in school suspension. > [http://www.kvue.com/news/state/258460201.html](http://www.kvue.com/news/state/258460201.html) > > Offhand this would seem to violate the 1st Amendment, wouldn’t it? Yes. Caselaw since _West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette_, 319 U. S. 624 (1943), keeps states from requiring the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/7 "2014-05-08T19:11:11Z")
Heh. Should have read the article before I commented. So the student has been sitting and staying silent for nearly the entire school year, but the teacher only just noticed and demanded that he stand and give the pledge. When he refused, she wrote him up, and that’s what got him the two day suspension. I _think_, and I have no cite, that I read a decision that said students could be required to stand, but could not be required to say the pledge. No idea how long ago that was. However, if the facts are as he’s stated, the teacher and the administration of that school are in big trouble. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/8 "2014-05-08T19:14:00Z")
The administration can’t require shit. So long as the kid isn’t causing an active disruption they can’t coerce him to even stand during the pledge. If his story is true he just paid for his college. _West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette_ settled that rather conclusively. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/9 "2014-05-08T19:15:59Z")
From the article, it seems like the issue is that he refused to stand, not that he refused to speak the pledge. Can a school force students to stand? His complaints about NSA spying and internet laws are irrelevant if the pledge is the issue. To me, it sounds more like a one man sit-down strike against the Federal government than an anti-pledge protest. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/10 "2014-05-08T19:20:19Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Heh. Should have read the article before I commented. > > So the student has been sitting and staying silent for nearly the entire school year, but the teacher only just noticed and demanded that he stand and give the pledge. When he refused, she wrote him up, and that’s what got him the two day suspension. > > I _think_, and I have no cite, that I read a decision that said students could be required to stand, but could not be required to say the pledge. No idea how long ago that was. > > However, if the facts are as he’s stated, the teacher and the administration of that school are in big trouble. It sounds like it was a substitute teacher: > [@](#): > > But on Wednesday, when a different teacher observed it for the very first time, the Needville High School sophomore ran into trouble. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/11 "2014-05-08T19:22:27Z")
Things seem so simple when you’re 15, eh kid? Have you discovered the collective works of Ayn Rand or Noam Chomsky? (depending on which direction he wants to go). Has this school never had Jehovah’s Witnesses? Of course I think they’re less demonstrative about it. The only way I could see them being okay is if he was otherwise disruptive. As this is Texas, I think it would show more balls to refuse to salute the state flag 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/12 "2014-05-08T19:36:12Z")
That a teacher could make this screw-up is somewhat understandable. But the principal? He should know better. Even in Texas. They teach this sort of thing in Principal School. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/13 "2014-05-08T21:05:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That a teacher could make this screw-up is somewhat understandable. But the principal? He should know better. Even in Texas. They teach this sort of thing in Principal School. No they don’t. I just had it out with my daughter’s principal over the National Day of Silence. They seriously folded like a six high poker hand when I copied my attorney on the emails. The message I left them with was “before you give a kid detention for exercising their Civil Rights, figure out if their parents are on your side or not. Lawsuits for schools are really unnecessary for shit like this.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/14 "2014-05-08T21:12:28Z")
They teach it. I didn’t say the principals in questioned _learned_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/15 "2014-05-08T21:30:13Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > It sounds like it was a substitute teacher: That was usually the problem in my experience. Everyday teachers were either used to the idea that you could stay seated for the pledge, or at least they didn’t take it personally. Substitutes were less likely to know the rules or more likely to have a problem with it, notwithstanding the fact that this has been settled law for ages. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/16 "2014-05-08T21:52:12Z")
And what happens is the teacher challenges the student. The student doesn’t get disciplinary action for refusing the pledge (or in my daughter case, for non-disruptive symbolic protest) they get it for defying authority. That my daughter was not given disciplinary action for any symbolic speech was a point the principal was making very clear - she was given action for being defiant and not following instructions from authority. I said “thats what she is supposed to do when someone is trying to take away her civil rights.” It still isn’t likely to end well for the school. ---
**Author:** ![CatherineZeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@CatherineZeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatherineZeta)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/17 "2014-05-08T22:15:54Z")
I hope everything works out for this kid. The district I went to had a book of rights and responsibilities which explicitly stated that students were allowed to sit respectfully during the pledge. In one of my classes a long term sub wanted students who were not American to stand and say the pledge. Bringing in the handbook cleared that right up. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/18 "2014-05-08T22:29:23Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Has this school never had Jehovah’s Witnesses? Of course I think they’re less demonstrative about it. The only way I could see them being okay is if he was otherwise disruptive. The Jehovah’s Witnesses in my school always stood during the pledge. I didn’t figure out they weren’t mumbling along with the rest of us until high school. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/19 "2014-05-08T23:52:53Z")
JWs were sort of like unicorns in my tiny-ass high school. I do remember that whenever this one girl switched to a new first-period class, she showed a letter to the teacher the very first day which apparently sorted everything out. (sample size, two first-period classes we both were in, so ymmv) She never had any problems that I knew about, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/20 "2014-05-09T00:48:47Z")
When I was in HS (1950-1954) the phrase “under God” was added to the pledge. From that day on, I never recited it again. No one ever said a word to me about that. You could argue that I could have just omitted that phrase, but the whole thing now disgusted me. In PA, schools were required to recite 10 verses of the bible every morning. In my schools, the teachers did it, but a girl I dated said that in her school, a student was required to read them. One Muslim student wanted to read from the Koran, but no, it had to be from the bible and he had to do it. Of course, that was in the 50s. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994.md?page=2)