# Student Suspended for Refusing Pledge of Allegiance **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 8, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994 "2014-05-08T18:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/21 "2014-05-09T01:47:25Z")
Our school district sends around a memo periodically reminding everybody that students cannot be punished in any way for refusing to participate in the Pledge and as long as they’re not disruptive to others, they have to be left alone. We have the memo easily accessible on the shared staff folder on the school network. I went to school in this same district and probably 50% of the high school kids (myself included) did not stand for the Pledge. Nobody batted an eyelash or ever said a thing to us. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/22 "2014-05-09T02:18:26Z")
Needville Texas, huh. Google map your way through the town. “I’m really tired of our government taking advantage of us,” said Michalec. “I don’t agree with the NSA spying on us. And I don’t agree with any of those Internet laws." I wonder what “Internet laws” he was referring to. This is his old man talking. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/23 "2014-05-09T02:46:23Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > “And I don’t agree with any of those Internet laws.” > > I wonder what “Internet laws” he was referring to. This is his old man talking. Surely it’s the net neutrality debate, along with the [FCC’s new rules](http://time.com/91619/net-neutrality-fcc-boss-smacked/). Perhaps you are the old man in this situation? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/24 "2014-05-09T03:04:14Z")
When I was in school, I stood at attention during the Pledge, but refused to stand in front of the class and lead the recitation. Nobody ever made a big deal or even a comment about it. And the part about God wasn’t even in there yet, which later on even further validated the right to refuse. Now that God is in there, it even violates the Establishment Clause. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/25 "2014-05-09T03:24:36Z")
All this reminds me of [typical San Franciscoisms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Kim#Pledge_of_Allegiance). Waiting for total equality? Yeah, have fun waiting. > [@jtur88](#): > > Now that God is in there, it even violates the Establishment Clause. [Ceremonial deism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_deism). America is too religious in their pledges/anthems. Why can’t we have a nice secular national anthem like the United Kingdom’s? ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/26 "2014-05-09T04:50:46Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The Jehovah’s Witnesses in my school always stood during the pledge. I didn’t figure out they weren’t mumbling along with the rest of us until high school. There was one girl that I went to school with that was JW. She sat and was silent during the pledge and there was never a problem that I recall. This was a small school in rural Alabama during the 70s-80s. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/27 "2014-05-09T05:02:49Z")
Doesn’t matter why the dude refuses to say, or even stand during, the pledge. It’s his _right_ and it’s nobody’s business why he’s exercising his right. This isn’t rocket science and the fact that the teacher, along with the principal, can’t figure that out shows how invested they (teacher & principal; perhaps even the school district) are in the religious nature of the pledge. And there is no such thing as “ceremonial deism”. It’s called religion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/28 "2014-05-09T07:37:42Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Surely it’s the net neutrality debate, along with the [FCC’s new rules](http://time.com/91619/net-neutrality-fcc-boss-smacked/). Perhaps you are the old man in this situation? 😛 I seriously doubt this. The net neutrality debate is just that, a debate. Its not a rule/law. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/29 "2014-05-09T08:10:26Z")
Is he an American citizen? Because if he were not, then he would be wrong to pledge allegiance to America. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/30 "2014-05-09T08:23:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is he an American citizen? Because if he were not, then he would be wrong to pledge allegiance to America. Almost certainly yes, since if he were not it would have been mentioned in the article. (My youngest son, who is not a US citizen, but who went to middle school and high school in Ohio, did stand for the pledge but did not recite it. That was his decision, but I think it was the right one.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/31 "2014-05-09T09:48:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Doesn’t matter why the dude refuses to say, or even stand during, the pledge. It’s his _right_ and it’s nobody’s business why he’s exercising his right. This isn’t rocket science and the fact that the teacher, along with the principal, can’t figure that out shows how invested they (teacher & principal; perhaps even the school district) are in the religious nature of the pledge. They may or may not be invested in the religious nature of the pledge, unless one regards patriotism as a religion, which it all but is in many places. At any rate, the insertion of a couple of religious words in the Pledge makes it fail both ways with respect to religion, AFAIAC: even without the ‘under God’ my attitude is, I’ve already got a Lord; what am I doing giving my allegiance to something of this world, absent a specific call from God to do so? And just putting the words ‘under God’ in the Pledge doesn’t remedy that: adding ‘under God’ to a pledge that everyone ignores except schoolchildren and their teachers doesn’t make this country a nation with allegiance to God, which the Establishment Clause would presumably prohibit anyway. And ‘under God’ provides a more than sufficient reason for nonbelievers to object to the Pledge. So IMHO, it fails for believers and nonbelievers alike. > [@](#): > > And there is no such thing as “ceremonial deism”. It’s called religion. I concur with you on this point, though I could at least tolerate the stupid idea if the Supremes kept drawing the line to limit such expressions to bland stuff that pretty much any theist or deist could buy into. Unfortunately, not only does the Supreme Court disagree with us both, but [they’ve just decided they’re out of the line-drawing business](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=722661), so almost anything goes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/32 "2014-05-09T10:35:01Z")
I wondered if maybe he’d said something like “no, I won’t fucking stand.” Then a suspension would be reasonable for swearing. But he’s an articulate boy (whether you agree with his reasons or not, at least he has reasons) so I find that less likely than the school just making a mistake. A particularly stupid mistake. > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Needville Texas, huh. Google map your way through the town. > > “I’m really tired of our government taking advantage of us,” said Michalec. “I don’t agree with the NSA spying on us. And I don’t agree with any of those Internet laws." > > I wonder what “Internet laws” he was referring to. This is his old man talking. I doubt it’s his parents doing the talking; it’s not uncommon for a teenager to have political opinions, especially about something like net neutrality. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/33 "2014-05-09T12:17:39Z")
Back in the day, when we were young contrary long-haired SOBs, we found that by standing up, placing our hands over our hearts, reciting the pledge, and then singing the Star Spangled Banner was an effective way to disrupt a class or assembly. When challenged, you had to pull off the proper amount of righteous indignation when you said, “You’re giving me detention because I love America?!? Wait until I tell my parents!” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/34 "2014-05-09T14:37:51Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Doesn’t matter why the dude refuses to say, or even stand during, the pledge. It’s his _right_ and it’s nobody’s business why he’s exercising his right. Correct. And if you want a 15-year-old to become an informed and engaged citizen, the thing to do is respect his right to express an opinion, not look for ways to dismiss his views. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/35 "2014-05-09T16:41:35Z")
I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow. And to the Republicans for which they scam, one nacho, underpants, divisible, with wizardry and jugs of wine for owls. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/36 "2014-05-09T17:00:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is he an American citizen? Because if he were not, then he would be wrong to pledge allegiance to America. Say he is on the road to citizenship, which takes a long time. It wouldn’t be wrong at all then to say the pledge. It is a matter of personal allegiance, not law. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/37 "2014-05-09T18:38:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Say he is on the road to citizenship, which takes a long time. It wouldn’t be wrong at all then to say the pledge. It is a matter of personal allegiance, not law. It’s a matter of a short poem that has absolutely no legal validity whatsoever. The pledge of allegiance is meaningless, legally. There is no force to it. It’s just a show. And to punish someone for refusing to take part in a show is wrong, not to mention illegal. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/38 "2014-05-09T19:55:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is he an American citizen? Because if he were not, then he would be wrong to pledge allegiance to America. Which raises an interesting conumdrum. In the Land of the Free, the citizens are denied a freedom that aliens retain. School students do not choose their citizenship. They carry its burdens under duress. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/39 "2014-05-09T20:00:58Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Which raises an interesting conumdrum. In the Land of the Free, the citizens are denied a freedom that aliens retain. Everybody is free not to say the pledge. No exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994/40 "2014-05-09T20:08:37Z")
Not sure it this is true in this case, but a lot of times an official like the principal will consider the two options: Support the teacher and take heat from outsiders. Support the kid and take heat from the locals. Guess which one they usually pick? They usually know they’re going to lose, but they want to look good to the locals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/student-suspended-for-refusing-pledge-of-allegiance/687994.md?page=3)