Study says: the more you lean left, the less you know about economics

This study is ridiculous the one and only accurate conclusion that could have appeared at the end of this study would have been something like:

Based on our observations people who identify themselves as “conservative” and/or “libertarian” in their political views agree with the authors of this study more than people who identify themselves as “moderate,” “liberal” or “progressive” on economic issues. Thus if the authors didn’t already know what group they aligned with economically it could now safely be conclude that they are either conservative or libertarian.

In order for the authors to conclude anything else many fallacies in their logic must be addressed.
First the authors need to prove or at least define “economic enlightenment”.
To “prove” economic enlightenment the authors would have to be able to show scientifically that there is a correct answer to each of the questions, that the conclusions are testable and accurately repeatable. This is something that mathematicians, physicist and chemists have all succeeded in doing for the “truths” of their disciplines but no economists from any of the different schools of thought (from Adam Smith to Carl Marx and Keynes to Hayek) has yet to be able to do this for “economic truths.” Thus if you can not prove what is economic enlightenment how can you show one group of people to be more enlighten than any other.

The authors could get around proving “economic enlightenment” by defining “economic enlightenment” as a particular theory and thus those responses that agree with that theory are more “enlightened”. At the same time, it is just as easy for someone from the other side to do the same thing and define “economic enlightenment” as a completely different theory and thus those responses that agree with that different theory are more “enlightened”. However, the mere act of defining “economic enlightenment” as in-line with an unproven ideology (a.k.a. dogma) does not make it true and the act of getting more people do agree or disagree with that dogma doesn’t make it any more or less true.
What the authors are doing is using words to create a misconception about the legitimacy of their article and their particular ideology. This is also known as propaganda and unfortunately it occurs in economic journals published in the US just as readily as it occurs in articles attempting to support other economic ideologies in other countries. All you have to do to find a particular country’s propaganda promoting its particular economic system is find an economic journal published in that country. In sometimes the government publishes it and in other times other special interest groups that are benefiting from that particular system publish it but either way it’s still propaganda. Just because the ideology that this particular article promotes is the dominate system that US economic system was built around does not make that ideology anymore “enlightened” than any of the other economic systems that have been around and functioning for just as long if not longer.

Personally I think it is absurd that we keep arguing over economic ideas that were written by normal men with all their faults over 200 years ago. You’d think that after 10 generations we’d be able to learn from the failures and successes of all of these ideologies and make some better economic systems than the ones some old dead guys wrote down centuries ago with only antidotal stories and imagined scenarios as the basis for their writings. But that’s beside the point.

Anyway, back to the article. Along with defining “enlightenment” the authors also need to define other phrases they use in their survey such as “standard of living.” If you only take into account the amount of stuff the “average US citizen” has as your measurement and claim that more stuff equals a higher standard of living then yes the Average US citizen has a higher standard of living. But this is misleading in the following ways. First the word “Average” is very misleading because it doesn’t differentiate between the 3 different types of average and in any case using only an average (any of the 3 types) does not address the range or distribution therefore the fairness of the system is not addressed and thus the fact that the nation has been facing a greater and greater disparity in the separation of wealth, material goods, and power over the last 30 years is also not addressed or accounted for.
However, even if these issues were addressed, the idea that a “standard of living” can be measured as directly proportional to the amount of money and stuff a person has is another fallacy. In fact there is very little correlation between stuff and happiness over a certain point. To properly evaluate “standard of living” other factors such as overall happiness, over all health, lack of stress, life expectancy and other non-tangible things such as the feeling of being respected and a part of a community should also be included. Case in point over the last 30 years many of these things have been on a decline. The average (all three different types) US citizen reports, less job satisfaction, more stress, and less happiness then US citizens reported in the late 1970s and early 1980s. In particular happiness has declined across the board in all socioeconomic groups in all regions of the country. The authors do not address any of these issues in how they describe a “standard of living” nor do they define what they are including in a “standard of living” to the survey participants, which means the survey participants cannot accurately evaluate what the authors’ claim as a “standard of living”. Nor would it be reasonable for a college student who was not alive 30 years ago to accurately judge all these non-tangible factors in their calculations of “standard of living”
The question of standard of living also does not define how “overall” you want to get. By almost any measure the standard of living in southeast Asia and parts of Africa is certainly not higher than it was 30 years ago because there are more mouths to feed and less food to do it with. By the way if you want an example of something that does not degrease in demand even as the price goes up food would be one of them.

To describe this article as academic is stupid and if this article is a peer reviewed piece of work then that doesn’t say much for economist or for the study of economics. No wonder we are in this so-called recession.

I wish you hadn’t bumped this thread, because it just made me angry.

And we won’t like you when you’re angry. :slight_smile:

So, liberals disagree with one-dimensional thinking that passes as economic theory. News @11.

Case in point:

  1. Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services.
    • Unenlightened: Disagree

Unenlightened? Unlicensed professional services increase the odds that the services will be performed poorly, resulting in additional costs for the customer to clean up the mess that results.

Case in point: my insurance license came at the end of rigorous education that showed me how to appreciate the function of Ordinance and Law coverage for HO-* policies, and my license carries the threat of revocation if I do not follow strict rules involving the replacement of someone’s life insurance policy.

Without this, I could decline to even talk to a customer about Ordinance and Law coverage and when their house is destroyed and their insurance won’t cover the new building code requirements for reconstruction, they stand to lose a TON of money. If I switch a customer to a new life insurance policy that is cheaper but offers less value than their previous policy, their beneficiaries could be SOL when they die.

Why did I call that a one-dimensional question? Because it only talks about the up-front price hit that licensing imposes on a service. It totally ignores the dangers that come with certain unlicensed services. Liberals see these multiple additional dimensions and instinctively they click “disagree”.
6. Third-world workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited.
• Unenlightened: Agree

This is horseshit. Third world workers would not have a job if their wages were of a first world level. China’s workers are seeing their wages go up, and as a result they’re losing their jobs to Vietnam. Third world workers are not only being exploited by their poverty but also by horrible working conditions and pollution issues. Anyone who disagrees with the environmental exploitation and workplace hazards that come with third world overseas work are free to tour a Chinese coal mine or breathe the air of the city of Linfeng. Or work a day in a textile factory in India, while visiting their beaches. The examples of worker exploitation in the third world are so numerous its name is Legion.
7. Free trade leads to unemployment.
• Unenlightened: Agree

If it is unenlightened to say that free trade leads to unemployment you must then say that factories are not being closed here and opened in the third world. You must show then that manufacturing jobs are not closing here and reappearing in the third world. You must then show that manufacturing jobs are being replaced by higher-paying jobs, or jobs that pay as much. This is impossible to show. The idea that free trade does not lead to unemployment is impossible to show. This is why both Conservatives and Liberals alike have so little support for free trade anymore. Everyone is seeing through it. Even a large number of economists are seeing it is horseshit, including famous turnabouts like Paul Krugman.
8. Minimum wage laws raise unemployment.
• Unenlightened: Disagree

This is by far the worst example of them all. Minimum wage laws do not necessarily raise unemployment. The lack of minimum wage laws result in lower wages for bottom-level jobs, which in reality leads to many low-wage people taking two jobs to make ends meet. This reduces the number of jobs available for others.

The accurate point is to say,
Minimum wage laws raise unemployment when they reach a certain excessive point. It’s called the point of diminishing returns.

Sigh.

Unintended consequences only happen when regulations and taxes are imposed.

Betcha almost all right wingers agree with that.

I laughed. It is of the intellectual caliber that I’ve come to expect to encounter.

The article, not the original poster. Although I wouldn’t at all be surprised if a number of people cosigned the actual tripe that got passed as economic “fact” in that cited poll.

Then let’s see a cite. Actually, let’s see a cite that even one right-winger believes that unintended consequences only happen when regulations and taxes are imposed.

Regards,
Shodan

He’s obviously engaging in hyperbole. I agree it’s a type of hyperbole that doesn’t enhance the discussion at all, however.

What if the idea were rephrased, as follows:

Liberals tend to focus on the unintended consequences of measures taken to increase private profit.
Conservatives tend to focus on the unintended consequences of increased government oversight.

Would you agree with that?

It depends - do you have a cite for either assertion?

Regards,
Shodan

I enjoy hearing from analysts who employ only relentless objective logic while exposing the flagrant biases of those with opposing views. :dubious::smiley:

How could the debate be about anything *other *than the 8 questions used in the study? The conclusion posits that college students are not getting enough economics education, correct? The conclusion of the study is based entirely on these 8 questions as far as I can tell, thus they are what is being discussed.

You seem to be saying that an education in economics would necessarily alter ones reading comprehension to interpret these questions in a simplistic manner, or at least with a single right answer for each question. I wholeheartedly disagree, if this is indeed your view.

  1. Restrictions on housing development make housing less affordable.
    If the law restricts large homes from being built (mansions) and allows only allows apartments/small homes to be built, the supply of small homes/apartments will increase and thus the prices will drop.

  2. Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services.
    See post #204 for an excellent example of why this is not always true.

  3. Third-world workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited.
    This question is true, it does not specifically mention third-world workers as a group nor imply it, if you read the statement literally it is true.

  4. Minimum wage laws raise unemployment.
    This statement does not mention anything about changing any laws related to minimum wage, it simply states that minimum wage laws raise unemployment. This is proven false quite easily, assume we had no minimum wage laws, and suddenly one was enacted at the rate of $0.25/USD per hour(or anywhere suitably low). Not a single person in the country would lose their job, however we would still have minimum wage laws.

(enlightened: 1. freed from ignorance and misinformation, 2. based on full comprehension of the problems involved)

By either definition it appears pretty clearly that all things would be considered from an enlightened viewpoint. I would posit that the 8 questions are not specific enough to rule out multiple scenarios for each question which would contradict both the answers provided by the study and by you. This would mean the provided answers are neither enlightened, nor objective. You have several times mentioned the study being biased, mainly I am disputing your opinion that a person with a proper economics 101 education would agree with the answers provided by the study necessarily.

We don’t even really need to debate each question. It’s a clear case of plurium interrogationum – demanding simplistic answers to complex questions. The study calls people who correctly parse the questions and give a nuanced answer “tendentious and churlish”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. They want the participants to answer with a simple kneejerk response, and there are apparently “enlightened” kneejerk responses and “unenlightened” kneejerk responses.

Did you guys know you can sort threads by date of last post?

I’m sure that will some how turn into a liberal vs conservative debate, that some how involves free trade and off shoring.

Don’t mind me, just taking a break from fighting ignorance to fight zombies.

Well, studies suggest that the more you lean left, the less you know about thread sorting.

You’re going to have to explain this one. It sounds to me like you are implying that someone brought this thread back after a long period of inactivity. That is pretty clearly not the case though, so what exactly is the issue here?

Does Bricker still post here?

There’s a gap of over a year between posts 200 and 201. Presumably, the fact that it’s almost exactly a year, combined with the fact that the gap fell right on a page break, led you to not notice it.

His last post was yesterday, so yes.

Oh, thanks for correcting me. I didn’t even bother looking at the full date, just the month/day. I assumed threads were automatically locked after a suitable amount of time had passed, as is the custom with other forums I have frequented. You have to specifically change your settings to show threads older than 10 days here at the SDMB, so the thought never occurred to me that Maeglin’s post could be from June 11th of last year.

This is Great Debates, not piddly-ass arguments. Some of the big stuff can take a while, though it would go a lot quicker if people who are wrong weren’t so damn stubborn.