# Study Says TV Disses Religion; Bricker Says Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342 "2004-12-17T14:47:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/21 "2004-12-17T18:03:16Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > You know why there’s negativity towards religion, don’t you? Just ask Bill Donahue, President, Catholic League. As he said on MSNBC’s Scarborough Country during a discussion of Mel Gibson’s snuff film: I saw that on the Daily Show last night. It ranks right up there with the South Park episode this week as the funniest damn thing I’ve seen all week. Especially Jon’s take on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/22 "2004-12-17T18:09:47Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Oh, give me a freaking break. That’s clearly supposed to be the Christian God there. > > :rolleyes: Based on what, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/23 "2004-12-17T18:17:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And I’ve gotta agree with Astorian about the “Christian” content of these religious shows. It seems obvious to me that a show that never mentions Christ (even allegorically) cannot be Christian. And although I’m not a Christian or monotheist or any kind of theist, I would argue that these shows about angels completely miss the point. I suppose it all goes back to how the Christian church absorbed and incorporated polytheistic pagan Europe. People are still worshipping gods and goddesses and nature spirits and calling it monotheism. Weird. This current angel worship fad turns my stomach. The idea of angels wandering around and helping people is a popular Christian one - most of the angel believers in the US would be offended if you said they weren’t Christians. I don’t see how you can expect theological accuracy in these shows anymore than you could scientific accuracy. As far as Christian/non-Christian - all of the shows exist to sell advertising. Turning off non-Christians is a no-no, which is why no Jesus. You’d think they’d be happy enough with God. (Turning off atheists is fine, of course.) I’m surprised no one has mentioned Seventh Heaven, with a wonderful minister as the hero. Let’s see a show with a leader of American Atheists treated so kindly. All this claptrap in our increasingly theocratic culture about how Christians are being persecuted reminds me how Joe Stalin saw threats to the revolution every five minutes while he was firmly in power in the Kremlin. Imminent threats are great for energizing the masses of sheep. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/24 "2004-12-17T18:39:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > South Park is the only show I can think of that openly, joyfully, mocks religion. Yet, just as often, it presents a message that it’s good to believe in something despite the faults of organized religion (“Red Hot Catholic Love”) or that you shouldn’t hate someone just because you think their religion is bogus (“All About Mormons”). South Park has never seemed like an anti-religious show to me. And if those examples in the OP are the worst the PTC can come up with, they really need to get a life. Comedy is all about mixing together the divine and the profane for an unexpected effect. Show me a drama that consistently mocks religion in a serious way. There really isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/25 "2004-12-17T19:08:57Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > And if those examples in the OP are the worst the PTC can come up with, they really need to get a life. one needn’t even bother reading the conclusions of this study when they saw [who was conducting it](http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731656) and what their criteria for “negative” were: > [@](#): > > What Powell did not reveal—apparently because he was unaware—was the source of the complaints. According to a new FCC estimate obtained by Mediaweek, nearly all indecency complaints in 2003—99.8 percent—were filed by the Parents Television Council, an activist group. clearly, this group needs to get a life. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/26 "2004-12-17T19:18:30Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Are there even any openly atheist characters on TV series? I suspect the folks who believe this “us po’ persecuted Christians” nonsense, _every_ TV character who isn’t openly and constantly singing the praises of Jesus is an atheist (even the openly Jewish ones 😉 ). As I’ve said before, these folks think anything short of a theocracy is “persecution.” ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/27 "2004-12-17T21:57:20Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Oh, give me a freaking break. That’s clearly supposed to be the Christian God there. > > :rolleyes: I don’t see it. I watch “Joan of Arcadia” every week; God shows up, and he gives messages of love and caring, but those are hardly particularly Christian. He never mentions Jesus, or any other Biblical figures - not even to use Biblical stories as parables for Joan’s life. I agree that it’s warm and fuzzy, and the implication is that there’s only one god, but it’s a pop-culture, non-denominational god. I don’t deny that the depiction draws certain ideas from Christian teachings, but only to the point that they have permeated our culture in general. There is nothing specifically relating to Jesus, to judgment, to sin; no answers regarding Heaven or Hell; nothing that says “Christian” as opposed to just a generalized concept of God. No religion gets to claim exclusive domain over “God” or “treating people nicely.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/28 "2004-12-17T22:02:57Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > There is nothing specifically relating to Jesus, to judgment, to sin; no answers regarding Heaven or Hell; nothing that says “Christian” as opposed to just a generalized concept of God. No religion gets to claim exclusive domain over “God” or “treating people nicely.” Granted I don’t watch the show much, but it’s not called Moshe ben Knoxville\*–it’s named after a Catholic heroine. Seems like a pretty unsubtle nod in the Christian direction to me. Daniel - My best attempt at a Judification of the name after ten minutes’ googling ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/29 "2004-12-17T22:04:21Z")
I have to agree with **astorian** , and just typing that out is giving me heartburn. Most TV shows go out of their way not to adress religion at all. Those that do tend to be very non-denominational, even when it makes no sense at all in the context of the show. I used to watch what was probably the most explicitly Christian show on television - _Seventh Heaven_ - because it was the lead-in to _Angel_, a show about a repentent vampire who goes around cutting the heads off demons. (Incidentally, who the fuck writes up these schedules?) The period I was watching happened to coincide with a story arc about the minister’s son falling love with a Jewish girl and converting to Judaism. Which upset the minister. But in all the fights and arguments and shouting and pouting, not once did anyone ask the kid, “Does this mean you no longer believe that Jesus was the son of God?” Which, you know, seems to be the most obvious question to ask in that sort of situation. The entire story arc (indeed, the entire show, from what I saw of it before they shifted the schedule around again) was resolved without ever once mentioning Jesus, even though 95% of the cast was explicitly Christian. From what I’ve seen of _Touched by an Angel_ and _Joan of Arcadia_, those shows strive even harder to be free of any definable theology, prefering instead a nebulous “God is really neat and looks out for everyone no matter what,” message. Which, for that matter, describes pretty much every TV show I’ve ever seen that broached the subject of religion in any way. I’ve never in all my life seen a TV show that, even for a single episode, was actively hostile to the idea of religious belief. The only exception is _South Park_, which has specifically stated that if you aren’t Mormon, you burn in Hell. And I’m pretty sure that was satire. Of course, to people like the PTC, any show that doesn’t explicitly promote their own particular Christian faith is “anti-religious,” so the article linked to in the OP surprises me not one whit. ---
**Author:** ![Myakot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Myakot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myakot)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/30 "2004-12-17T22:05:56Z")
What about, like, Joan of Arcadia or whatever that drek is? > [@](#): > > a dialogue in a Feb. 10 episode of NBC’s “Will and Grace” in which sidekick Karen tells lead character Grace, “Let’s go buy that historic church and turn it into a gay bar.” [http://ohmygods.timerift.net/strips/2004/05/30.php](http://ohmygods.timerift.net/strips/2004/05/30.php) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/31 "2004-12-17T22:10:45Z")
I just remembered which Simpsons episode I heard Bozell complaining about – it was the one where Homer “takes” a baptism for Bart (in the manner of throwing himself in front of a bullet). Bozell interpreted that a mocking Christianity and holding it up as a harm to be protected from. I noticed, however, that after Homer took the baptism, he became more intelligent, articulate, and over-all-good (for a moment anyway). ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/32 "2004-12-17T22:23:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Based on what, precisely? While I can’t recall too many instances of Jesus being mentioned, specifically, most often when a religious authority (through weddings, funerals, rituals in religious buildings, etc…) is represented, he is shown to be a Christian leader. “Non-denominational” in television generally shows up in a Christian sense. Occasionally, of course, one sees a rabbi, but that’s fairly rare. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/33 "2004-12-17T22:27:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The period I was watching happened to coincide with a story arc about the minister’s son falling love with a Jewish girl and converting to Judaism. Which upset the minister. But in all the fights and arguments and shouting and pouting, not once did anyone ask the kid, “Does this mean you no longer believe that Jesus was the son of God?” Which, you know, seems to be the most obvious question to ask in that sort of situation. The entire story arc (indeed, the entire show, from what I saw of it before they shifted the schedule around again) was resolved without ever once mentioning Jesus, even though 95% of the cast was explicitly Christian. That’s not true, actually; I caught the same episode ('cause his love interest–soon to be his wife–was _hot_), and one his father’s arguments was that he had raised the son to believe in Jesus. I’m trying to find a script to verify that, but I’m not having much luck. (It’s easier to find _Angel_ scripts.) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/34 "2004-12-17T22:50:41Z")
Let’s put the Parents Television Council, as quoted as the source of the OPs story, into perspective: > [@](#): > > In an appearance before Congress in February, when the controversy over Janet Jackson’s Super Bowl moment was at its height, Federal Communications Commission chairman Michael Powell laid some startling statistics on U.S. senators. > > The number of indecency complaints had soared dramatically to more than 240,000 in the previous year, Powell said. The figure was up from roughly 14,000 in 2002, and from fewer than 350 in each of the two previous years. There was, Powell said, “a dramatic rise in public concern and outrage about what is being broadcast into their homes.” > > What Powell did not reveal—apparently because he was unaware—was the source of the complaints. **According to a new FCC estimate obtained by Mediaweek, nearly all indecency complaints in 2003—99.8 percent—were filed by the Parents Television Council, an activist group.** > > This year, the trend has continued, and perhaps intensified. > > Through early October, 99.9 percent of indecency complaints—aside from those concerning the Janet Jackson “wardrobe malfunction” during the Super Bowl halftime show broadcast on CBS— were brought by the PTC, according to the FCC analysis dated Oct. 1. Source: [http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article\_display.jsp?vnu\_content\_id=1000731656](http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731656) ---
**Author:** ![Myakot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Myakot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myakot)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/35 "2004-12-17T22:56:39Z")
_whistles_ Wow, it isn’t a good decade to for anyone named “Powell” to be making presentations… ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/36 "2004-12-17T23:56:30Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > While I can’t recall too many instances of Jesus being mentioned, specifically, most often when a religious authority (through weddings, funerals, rituals in religious buildings, etc…) is represented, he is shown to be a Christian leader. “Non-denominational” in television generally shows up in a Christian sense. Occasionally, of course, one sees a rabbi, but that’s fairly rare. OK, this is true, but it’s reasonably based upon a reality: if you are going to portray a religious or spiritual event within a society (USA) that is at least _nominally_ 80%+ “Christian” in some way, shape or form, you’re gonna portray some brand of Christianity. Even if rendered unrecognizably Generic-American-Protestant-Processed-Church-Product. In the cases of _Touched by an Angel_ and _Joan of Arcadia_ the writers dance around theological specifics in order to maximize the potential viewers who may identify the god-character in the show as possibly being based on “theirs”. But their vision of what God and Angels do ends up owing more to the New Age than to traditional Christian or Judaic mysticism. These shows tend to imply that though their characters are moving among a culturally Christian society (with an ocassional Jew, Muslim or “miscellaneous” thrown in), God is “above it all”, and not really tied in with human religious quibbles. Yes, JoA uses a x-reference to St. Joan of Arc, but that’s more because that’s a reference to a person who had divine visions that a majority of the culture can understand. Be that as it may, the complainers are just talking out of their fundaments – hostile, schmostile; these whiners just want our primetime entertainment to actually _preach_ at us. ---
**Author:** ![Myakot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Myakot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myakot)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/37 "2004-12-17T23:59:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But their vision of what God and Angels do ends up owing more to the New Age than to traditional Christian or Judaic mysticism. To be fair, every generations’ view of “God and Angels” is “New Age” rather than “traditional”… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/38 "2004-12-18T02:42:54Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > That’s not true, actually; I caught the same episode ('cause his love interest–soon to be his wife–was _hot_), and one his father’s arguments was that he had raised the son to believe in Jesus. I’m trying to find a script to verify that, but I’m not having much luck. (It’s easier to find _Angel_ scripts.) Did he? Well, I can’t say as I was watching with rapt attention. I very well might have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/39 "2004-12-18T03:39:13Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > While I can’t recall too many instances of Jesus being mentioned, specifically, most often when a religious authority (through weddings, funerals, rituals in religious buildings, etc…) is represented, he is shown to be a Christian leader. “Non-denominational” in television generally shows up in a Christian sense. Occasionally, of course, one sees a rabbi, but that’s fairly rare. On the show, Grace’s father is a rabbi, and portrayed postively. Name a Christian figure (priest, minister, whatever) that has been referenced on the show as often as Grace’s father. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342/40 "2004-12-18T03:48:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did he? Well, I can’t say as I was watching with rapt attention. I very well might have missed it. You might not have; when I looked at [tvtome.com](http://tvtome.com), I saw that there were three episodes in a row dealing with that whole ordeal. We might have seen different ones. > [@JRDelirous](#): > > OK, this is true, but it’s reasonably based upon a reality: if you are going to portray a religious or spiritual event within a society (USA) that is at least nominally 80%+ “Christian” in some way, shape or form, you’re gonna portray some brand of Christianity. Even if rendered unrecognizably Generic-American-Protestant-Processed-Church-Product. No argument there; even when it’s the very reconizable Catholic priest being shown, they normally don’t go into religious specifics. Regardless, the generic representation is still an obvious Christian one. **Neurotik** wasn’t wrong in that assertion. > [@Bricker](#): > > On the show, Grace’s father is a rabbi, and portrayed postively. > > Name a Christian figure (priest, minister, whatever) that has been referenced on the show as often as Grace’s father. What, _Will and Grace_? I don’t really watch it, so I can’t say; however, while **Neurotik** referenced two shows (_Joan of Arcadia_ and _Touched By An Angel_), I think his overriding point was what I’m asserting: that the religious representations shown on television are overwhelmingly pro-Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/study-says-tv-disses-religion-bricker-says-huh/280342.md?page=3)