# Stuff you didn't notice in novels I.E. Tom Sawyer **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 14, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281 "2013-12-14T00:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/21 "2013-12-16T07:25:23Z")
So is this just the Tom Sawyer thread now or can we bring up other stuff we missed in books as the title seems to be asking for? Anyway, I totally missed the whole “Renly’s gay” thing in the Game of Thrones books it was so subtle. Of course the show was completely the other way and so in your face about it that it was pretty jarring in contrast. oh noes i mentioned the book and show in the same post, the horror ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/22 "2013-12-16T07:47:28Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Not in my experience. Discussions and plans to censor Sawyer and Finn are recent and have always, to my knowledge, centered on terms for African Americans that are now considered repulsive. In other words, the N word. Not so recent, I think. The edition of _Tom Sawyer_ we had about the place forty years ago had a foreword by Twain himself in which he commented on the reception the books had been getting, and remarking (possibly ironically) that Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn weren’t intended to be handed out to children. So if there was an edition with a foreword by the author, the discussion must have been ongoing for quite some time. The N word? There’s no use pretending it never happened - and you might as well take a look at Tom and Huck who are basically good people for their time and who use the word as naturally as breathing. Is the word “not so bad” in the context of the time because children can use it innocently and without malice (Huck uses the word while remarking on his realization of how much Jim loves his family) – or is it so insidious that innocent children can use it and not even realize that they are regarding human beings as something other than human because of the colour of their skin? Another instance is a footnote reference to “Bull Harbison”, who is a dog: "If Harbison owned a slave named Bull, he would be called ‘Harbison’s Bull’; but a son or a dog of that name was called ‘Bull Harbison’ " – which carries quite a chilling implication the moment you think about it. But you might as well leave it in and have the discussion rather than assume that Twain and, somewhat more to the point, his characters and the world they lived in, conformed to the norms of more-enlightened 21st-century society. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/23 "2013-12-16T10:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The N word? There’s no use pretending it never happened - and you might as well take a look at Tom and Huck who are basically good people for their time and who use the word as naturally as breathing. Is the word “not so bad” in the context of the time because children can use it innocently and without malice (Huck uses the word while remarking on his realization of how much Jim loves his family) – or is it so insidious that innocent children can use it and not even realize that they are regarding human beings as something other than human because of the colour of their skin? I think it’s perfectly acceptable to read the historically accurate use of language in this book regardless of age(within reason) because A) It will provide an accurate image of the times and B) the context and meaning of the language should be understood by the reader prior to reading the book. The N word has had a number of meanings, definitions, and intonations over the years. Maybe it should be the teacher’s responsibility to enlighten the class on the finer points of the N word relative to the book. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/24 "2013-12-16T10:42:56Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > So is this just the Tom Sawyer thread now or can we bring up other stuff we missed in books as the title seems to be asking for? > > Anyway, I totally missed the whole “Renly’s gay” thing in the Game of Thrones books it was so subtle. Of course the show was completely the other way and so in your face about it that it was pretty jarring in contrast. oh noes i mentioned the book and show in the same post, the horror Huh, i missed that too. I watched season one and two before i started reading the series. So i only made to about page 600 in the first book before i decided it was similar enough to the show that i can skip right to book 3. I definitely lost out on some of the content by doing that. Speaking of things missed in game of thrones. Have you read any of the threads on the series? Who do you think John Snows mother is? There is a gang of people who think that John Snow is the bastard of Rheagar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark(Ned Stark’s dead sister). They have assembled a small list of clues that I never linked to together and they are ambiguous at best… I’m not convinced. I think that Ned Stark is telling the truth that he is John Snow’s father. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/25 "2013-12-16T18:20:17Z")
> [@Tess](#): > > Didn’t Tom say his half-brother’s full name was Sid Sawyer in _Huckleberry Finn_? > > Which just adds to the confusion, since Aunt Polly is raising a boy she isn’t related to Not necessarily. Polly Sawyer’s late sister _could_ have been a round-heeled tramp, with really bad contraceptive skillz… ETA: Ninja’d by the far more gallant and circumspect **Miller**. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/26 "2013-12-16T18:26:44Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > So is this just the Tom Sawyer thread now or can we bring up other stuff we missed in books as the title seems to be asking for? The “i.e.” in the title implies that it’s specifically a _Tom Sawyer_ thread. The appropriate abbreviation for signalling that it’s only an example would have been “e.g.” > [@TBG](#): > > Anyway, I totally missed the whole “Renly’s gay” thing in the Game of Thrones books it was so subtle. Of course the show was completely the other way and so in your face about it that it was pretty jarring in contrast. oh noes i mentioned the book and show in the same post, the horror You rebel, you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/27 "2013-12-17T18:49:10Z")
I don’t think Aunt Polly’s last name is ever given. And there’s a third child, the older sister Mary. Is Sid really described as “step-brother” or “half-brother” or is it just Tom saying so? If it’s just Tom saying so, it could be just Tom’s way of insulting Sid? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/28 "2013-12-17T19:08:03Z")
From the text of the novel (chapter 1): \*Tom did play hookey, and he had a very good time. He got back home barely in season to help Jim, the small colored boy, saw next-day’s wood and split the kindlings before supper—at least he was there in time to tell his adventures to Jim while Jim did three-fourths of the work. **Tom’s younger brother (or rather half-brother)** Sid was already through with his part of the work (picking up chips), for he was a quiet boy, and had no adventurous, trouble-some ways. \* [Source.](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/74/74-h/74-h.htm) ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/29 "2013-12-17T19:26:39Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > I don’t think Aunt Polly’s last name is ever given. And there’s a third child, the older sister Mary. > > Is Sid really described as “step-brother” or “half-brother” or is it just Tom saying so? If it’s just Tom saying so, it could be just Tom’s way of insulting Sid? I believe Mary was Tom’s cousin, not sister. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/30 "2013-12-17T19:45:49Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Wow, I never thought of that, but you’re right. > > Maybe Tom (who was older) assumed the last name of his mother’s second husband when she re-married. Would that have been a common practice of those times? That does require two dead (or missing) dads, in addition to the deceased mom. But no matter what, since Sid is his half brother, the back story requires 3 dead or missing parents. > > Or Aunt Polly just took on her dead sister’s boy and his half sibling as a package, not to break up the family. “Decent” Southerners were loath to break up slave families, right? So maybe it wouldn’t have been such a big-hearted sacrifice to raise a non-blood relative. The fact that Sid was the favored of the two just shows how much she values Sid’s “goodness,” given how much of a pain in the ass Tom was (relative to her standards). I know from my perspective, bloodlines wouldn’t make one kid more cherished than the other, but not sure what sentiments would have prevailed in that less-enlightened time. > > Or how about this: Their mom had a fetish for guys named Sawyer, so she married two unrelated Sawyers consecutively. 😃 completely off topic, just related to the ‘two unrelated Sawyers’…I have a distant rel. who my age. her mother was a “Smithchik”, and her mother married three times, twice to two different men named “Smithchyk” and “Smithchuk”. I am assured there was no mistake in the records and that the three men, the father and two husbands, were not closely related, if at all. I’m still not convinced. today, in the USA, there are fewer than 50 people with any variation of the ‘Smithchxk’ name. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/31 "2013-12-17T22:11:19Z")
It was also not uncommon, especially in rural areas, for widows (or widowers) to marry siblings of their deceased spouse. Tom’s mother may have married the Sawyer brothers consecutively before she died. Of course that would have made Tom and Silas cousins in addition to half-brothers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/32 "2013-12-17T22:49:41Z")
Even in peacetime, even in America, life before the 20th Century was often nasty, brutish and short. An orphan would be a thing too commonplace to require backstory. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/33 "2013-12-18T00:34:55Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It was also not uncommon, especially in rural areas, for widows (or widowers) to marry siblings of their deceased spouse. Tom’s mother may have married the Sawyer brothers consecutively before she died. > > Of course that would have made Tom and Silas cousins in addition to half-brothers. 😕 Who the hell is Silas? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/34 "2013-12-18T02:02:53Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > There must have been a lot of tragedy in that family. If I remember correctly Mary and Sid, who also lived with Aunt Polly, were Tom’s half brother and half sister, not full brother and sister. Perhaps the dead sister was widowed twice. There was a lot of tragedy in most families in those times. Women and children often died during childbirth. And the childhood illnesses took many more. People who fell on difficult times gave them away to other families and being orphaned was also more common. My own grandmother’s family was yours, mine and ours. Makes for a mix of step- and half-siblings and really gets confusing. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/35 "2013-12-18T02:06:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The “i.e.” in the title implies that it’s specifically a _Tom Sawyer_ thread. > > The appropriate abbreviation for signalling that it’s only an example would have been “e.g.” If that were the intention, it would be a redundant redundancy to title the thread that way instead of just as “Stuff you didn’t notice in Tom Saywer”, though. So I think it’s safer to assume, that like 99.999999% of people the topic creator either doesn’t know the difference or care about the difference regarding ie and eg. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/36 "2013-12-18T06:53:29Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > If that were the intention, it would be a redundant redundancy to title the thread that way instead of just as “Stuff you didn’t notice in Tom Saywer”, though. So I think it’s safer to assume, that like 99.999999% of people the topic creator either doesn’t know the difference or care about the difference regarding ie and eg. I’ll willingly excuse the OP’s mistake in that case, but I refuse to believe that I’m the only person on the planet who knows or cares about the difference as your mathematics would suggest. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/37 "2013-12-18T07:03:49Z")
he might be exaggerating but the basic idea is true. it is sad how many people nowadays don’t care about correct Latin ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/38 "2013-12-18T07:57:00Z")
_Sic transit gloria mundi_. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/39 "2013-12-18T09:01:42Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It was also not uncommon, especially in rural areas, for widows (or widowers) to marry siblings of their deceased spouse. Particularly if her husband had already died, leaving her as a single mom with a small child - Tom’s cousin Mary. When Tom’s mom, her sister, died, leaving Tom’s dad also single with small child to look after, the two married. Then together they had Sid, Tom’s half brother/half cousin/step brother. Of course Aunt Polly liked Sid better – her own child, and her youngest child. In the RC church, that would have required permission from the Bishop, but the Sawyers weren’t RC. Very sensible, but still I reckon Polly was the Younger Sister – she married the husband of the older sister she always admired, he married the younger version of the wife he first loved. Besides, the younger sister is on average the more likely to be the survivor. Not that I paid any attention to it before now. Your relatives are always peripheral to your story. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281/40 "2013-12-18T11:28:07Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > completely off topic, just related to the ‘two unrelated Sawyers’…I have a distant rel. who my age. her mother was a “Smithchik”, and her mother married three times, twice to two different men named “Smithchyk” and “Smithchuk”. I am assured there was no mistake in the records and that the three men, the father and two husbands, were not closely related, if at all. I’m still not convinced. today, in the USA, there are fewer than 50 people with any variation of the ‘Smithchxk’ name. My mom and her sister both married unrelated men with the same last name. My last name isn’t quite as obscure as Smithchik, but it’s not exactly Robinson either. People naturally assumed that my cousins and me were related through our dads’ bloodline. Nope. So, from my perspective, Tom’s mom marrying two unrelated Sawyers would be unusual but not implausible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stuff-you-didnt-notice-in-novels-i-e-tom-sawyer/676281.md?page=3)