# Stump my friend with Tolkien.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 20, 2001, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501 "2001-06-20T18:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/41 "2001-07-08T16:10:26Z")
I agree with Clark K. I, too, am desperate to learn the answer about the chapter in _The Hobbit_ that was re-edited. Regarding my own humble queries: \*\* > [@](#): > > What was Niggle’s neighbor’s name?\*\* In the short story _Leaf by Niggle_, Niggle’s troublesome neighbor was named “Parrish.” \*\* > [@](#): > > What was the name of Farmer Giles’ dog?\*\* In the short story (novella?) _Farmer Giles of Ham_, Farmer Giles’ dog was named “Garm.” And, yes, he _was_ prone to bullying and bragging! (For bonus points, I _believe_ Farmer Giles’ favorite cow was named Galatea, but the Giant trod on her and stomped her flat.) \*\* > [@](#): > > Where did “Smith” live? \*\* The self-explanatory name of the novella to which this refers is “_Smith of Wootten Major_” (I hope the spelling is right. It has been many years since I re-read this one.) Still looking for a star in my Birthday Cake – Tenar ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/42 "2001-07-20T23:23:33Z")
Well, okay. “Gnome,” is used in _The Book of Lost Tales_ to refer to the Noldoli. In the Silmarillion, they’re called the Noldor. They’re primarily distinguished from the Sindar (“Elves” in _The Book of Lost Tales_), but are still Eldar/elves by species. “Elu”/“Elwe” probably comes from the word for star. And Tolkien didn’t explicitly say that elves had pointed ears, but in a linguistic note, he says their ears were leaf-like. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/43 "2001-07-21T00:07:58Z")
Ahh, a Tolkien thread. Naturally, I feel quite at home. 😉 The “expert” named the three easiest wizards. Anyone with class would have immediately interjected Alatar and Pallando. Here’s a nice one. What happened to Mr. Bliss’ motor car? This will separate the wheat from the chaff. Oh, and let’s hear a line or three from Tolkien’s poem in Gothic. MR ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/44 "2001-07-21T00:09:24Z")
Oh, and since we are all such quizlords, let’s see if anyone knows why Tolkien clung to the term “Gnome” for so long despite nearly overwhelming objection to its application to a seven foot tall elf. It’s etymological. MR ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/45 "2001-07-21T03:12:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\*Oh, and since we are all such quizlords, let’s see if anyone knows why Tolkien clung to the term “Gnome” for so long despite nearly overwhelming objection to its application to a seven foot tall elf. > > It’s etymological. > \*\* Ooh, I know this…it’s from the Greek for “to know,” hence its suitability (he thought) for the “intellectual” Noldor… ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/46 "2001-07-21T06:07:19Z")
-i]The Hobbit\* re-edit: Originally, “Riddles in the Dark” ended with Gollum meekly leading Bilbo to the surface without running into any goblins. I don’t remember why it was changed, since I found the trilogy itself fairly dull. Tolkien should have also fixed the early part of “Riddles” where he says no one knows what Gollum’s real name is, since Gandalf says in the trilogy it’s Smeagol, and also amended _Hobbit_ where it says Gollum refers to himself as “My Precious,” when that’s really the Ring. Want the original? Look for _Masterpieces of Terror and the Su-ernatural_, Marvin Kaye, editor, Doubleday, 1985, ISBN 0-385-18549-9. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/47 "2001-07-21T07:18:43Z")
\*Bagme Bloma \*Brunaim bairiþ bairka bogums Laubans liubans liudandei gilwagroni, glitmunjandei, bagme bloma, blauandei, fagrafahsa, liþulinþi, fraujinondei fairguni. Wopjand windos, wagjand lindos, lutiþ limam laikandei; slaihta, raihta, hweitarinda, razda rodeiþ reirandei, bandwa bairhta, runa goda, þiuda meina þiuþjandei. Andanahti milhmam neipiþ, liuhteiþ liuhmam lauhmuni; laubos liubai fliugand lausai, tulgus, triggwa, standandei. Bairka baza beidiþ blaika fraujinondei fairguni. \* Flower of the Trees The birch bears fine leaves on shining boughs, it grows pale green and glittering, the flower of the trees in bloom, fair-haired and supple-limbed, the ruler of the mountain. The winds call, they shake gently, she bends her boughs low in sport; smooth, straight and white-barked, trembling she speaks a language, a bright token, a good mystery, blessing my people. Evening grows dark with clouds, the lightning flashes, the fine leaves fly free, but firm and faithful the white birch stands bare and waits, ruling the mountain. [sub]A beautiful poem with music in the words. But I have the very devil of a time saying “Bagme Bloma” to people without them thinking it’s something obscene. :rolleyes:[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/48 "2001-07-21T07:20:27Z")
Here’s a stumper: Identify **Tinfang Warble**. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/49 "2001-07-22T07:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rowrrbazzle \* > Tom Bombadil refers to himself as “eldest”. Other than this, the LOTR trilogy never states exactly who or what Tom Bombadil is. However, Tolkien states that he intended Tom partially as a symbol for something. What? Okay, I’ll reveal the answer. In one of Tolkien’s letters, he says that Tom was partially a symbol for “the vanishing spirit of the English countryside.” In another letter he says that Tom was intended to remain a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/50 "2001-07-22T14:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Tolkien Guru Says > > Ecthellion, He Killed Gothmog in Gondolin \*\* Ecthelion was Denother’s father, was he not? O ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/51 "2001-07-22T14:08:51Z")
Also, Ulmo was the name for the “good God” in the Middle Earth pantheon. The oldest creature was Fangorn/Treebeard. Q: From whom was Sauron merely a servant or emissary? Who is the REAL big baddie? ## O Hoosier Daddy?! ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/52 "2001-07-22T14:40:18Z")
The real big baddie was cast out into the Void at the end of the First Age of Sun. After that, Sauron was his own boss. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2001, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/53 "2001-07-22T21:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tansu \* > \*_The real big baddie_ was cast out into the Void at the end of the First Age of Sun. After that, Sauron was his own boss. \*\* - Morgoth or Delu-Morgoth ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/54 "2001-07-23T08:51:45Z")
His original name was Melkor, and he was known to the Elves as Morgoth Bauglir. Can’t remember who asked, bet Elwë Singollo/Elu Thingol’s brother was Olwë. Olwë led the rest of the Teleri to Valimar. ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/55 "2001-07-23T08:55:00Z")
I just remembered another one: Mandos’ real name is Nàmo. Mandos strictly refers to his palace, the Halls of the Dead. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/56 "2001-07-23T19:21:06Z")
Well done pulling up Bagme Bloma. **Katisha** , the fact that the etymological root is similar to Greek is pretty coincidental. It would have been grossly inconsistent to a man like JRRT to use Ancient Greek as a translated language for Middle Earth in any capacity. Keep digging. 😉 No one has been able to tell me what happened to Mr. Bliss’ motor car? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/57 "2001-07-24T05:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > **the fact that the etymological root is similar to Greek is pretty coincidental** \*Curiously, the Quenya for ‘fire’ is _ **nár** _, which just happens to be exactly identical to the Arabic word for ‘fire’. Arabic, of all languages! And here I thought Tolkien’s shtick was northwestern Europe. Do you think he was ever aware of the coincidence? Or was his linguistic _palantír_, so to speak, permanently turned away from the region of Far Harad? More Arabic: the word _ **man** _ ‘who’ is exactly identical with the Arabic word for ‘who’. Another coincidence: the pronoun _ **te** _ ‘them’ (as in the Cormallen Fields song, “_a laita te_ ‘bless them!’”) is identical with the Sanskrit third person plural pronoun _te_, ‘they’. The verbal stem _ **car-** _ ‘make, do’ is exactly identical with the verbal stem _kar_- ‘make, do’ in Sanskrit and Persian. The preposition _ **ter** _ ‘through’ has the same meaning in Proto-Indo-European, as does the related word _ **tar** _ ‘beyond’ in Sanskrit. The 1st-person pronoun _ **ni** _ ‘I’ means the same thing in Basque. The conjunction _ **o** _ ‘and’ is the same word in Persian. There are near resemblances in other languages, e.g. _ **atar** _ ‘father’, Turkish _ata_ ‘father’. _ **Vanda** _ ‘vow, oath, solemn pledge’, Mongolian _anda_ ‘vow, oath, solemn pledge of alliance’. _ **Nissi** _ ‘women’, Estonian _naisi_ ‘women’. (For cites of all these etyma, see the [Quenya Corpus Wordlist](http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qlist.htm).) The word for ‘light’ is _ **silmë** _; compare with the Finnish word for ‘eye’: _silmä_. This resemblance, I am confident, was deliberate. Likewise _ **ilm-** _, stem appearing in **Ilmen** , the region above the air where the stars are, **Ilmarë** , name of a Maia, and **Ilmarin** “mansion of the high airs” — compare with Finnish _ilma_ ‘air’. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/58 "2001-07-24T13:36:48Z")
What’s a _ **tark** _? ---
**Author:** ![Kaotic\_Newtral](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@Kaotic\_Newtral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaotic_Newtral)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/59 "2001-07-24T14:31:24Z")
Jeez guys… I’m gone for a few days and you keep posting. I wish I could help but I’m a Tolkien amateur. My friend is on vacation and won’t be back for another week. I’m glad all is going well. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501/60 "2001-07-27T02:56:55Z")
_Tark_ is Orkish for ‘man of Gondor’. A debased form of _tarkil_, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenorean descent. (Appendix F) So no one has identified Tinfang Warble? Looks like I really did stump the band. Although I checked after posting and it isn’t hard to find out about Tinfang. Google knows all, tells all. At least be glad I didn’t bring up “Goblin Feet.” :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stump-my-friend-with-tolkien/69501.md?page=4)