# Stunning statistic disqualifies Puerto Rico from US statehood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684 "2012-11-21T03:29:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/21 "2012-11-21T14:31:29Z")
Do I hear the faint, distant tone of a dog whistle? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/22 "2012-11-21T14:41:56Z")
About that: only dogs can hear dog whistles, right? So if you hear one, you must be a dog? We need a better euphemism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/23 "2012-11-21T15:01:18Z")
Hey, the Puerto Ricans want to be in America. Everything’s free in America. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/24 "2012-11-21T15:02:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > About that: only dogs can hear dog whistles, right? So if you hear one, you must be a dog? We need a better euphemism. Bat-shit Signal? ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/25 "2012-11-21T15:05:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, the Puerto Ricans want to be in America. > > Everything’s free in America. Well, for a small fee. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/26 "2012-11-21T15:34:17Z")
I’m not from the US so I’ll ask. If you’re a citizen, can your citizenship be revoked? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/27 "2012-11-21T15:43:38Z")
Without your consent, you mean? If you’re a naturalized citizen, yes, under [certain circumstances](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-10285.html). If you’re a birthright citizen (like anyone born in Puerto Rico), no. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/28 "2012-11-22T21:39:04Z")
If the benefits are already being paid, what difference does it make whether Puerto Rico becomes a state or not? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/29 "2012-11-24T12:47:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So all the people working at one factory filed fraudulent disability claims. Does that say something about Puerto Ricans in general? Or, is it more likely that one of them did it and told everyone else? The article suggests it’s Puerto Ricans in general, and uses the factory anecdote as an example. “In 2010, the Social Security Administration awarded benefits in 63.4% of its initial decisions in Puerto Rico, compared with much lower rates elsewhere.” It’s not clear to me that the lesson here is citizenship. The lesson is that a large percentage of any population will take funds from a public coffer, particularly if the alternative to earn it yourself is not available. Socialism always breaks down eventually because, in the effort to help the needy, the definition of “needy” has no upper limit to how expansive it becomes. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/30 "2012-11-24T12:52:57Z")
OP: How does drawing SSDI disqualify a territory (region, etc.) for statehood? Be sure to mention the Constitutional provision in your answer. Oh, and just for fun, try to make the answer make sense, as opposed to whatever the heck that is you have in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/31 "2012-11-24T12:53:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Shortly after the layoff, 290 of the 300 former employees applied for Social Security disability benefits and they all used the same doctor, who lived far from the plant, Mr. O’Carroll told the audience. Mr. O’Carroll didn’t identify the doctor, whose identity couldn’t be learned. Shouldn’t Mr O’Carroll be naming and shaming the doctor and confirming the truth of the claim, rather than witholding evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/32 "2012-11-24T13:43:38Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The article suggests it’s Puerto Ricans in general, and uses the factory anecdote as an example. > > “In 2010, the Social Security Administration awarded benefits in 63.4% of its initial decisions in Puerto Rico, compared with much lower rates elsewhere.” > > It’s not clear to me that the lesson here is citizenship. The lesson is that a large percentage of any population will take funds from a public coffer, particularly if the alternative to earn it yourself is not available. Socialism always breaks down eventually because, in the effort to help the needy, the definition of “needy” has no upper limit to how expansive it becomes. A few points you might conside: 1. The degree to which heavy manual labor is performed by American citizens is significantly higher in Puerto Rico than in the majority of the 50 statess, owing to a variety of economic factors. 2/ SSDI is typucakk refysed ti furst-instance applicants “on the ainland” to the extent that several jurisdictions I am aware of, the recommendation is to engage a lawyer to pursue your appeal prior to making your initial applica5tion. It may be that the 63.4^ figure is more in line with what ought to be aearded than typicak mainland awards/ 1. Neither SSDI nor Social Security are means-tested. And they are “earned” in the sense that someone earned the approp[riate number of quarters to qualify the recipient 00 typically a parent or spouse. “Needy” does not enter into the picture, nor in the case of honest SSDI does the alternative toearn it “honestly/” ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/33 "2012-11-25T04:49:15Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Socialism always breaks down eventually because, in the effort to help the needy, the definition of “needy” has no upper limit to how expansive it becomes. And here I was thinking that socialist countries broke down because they were really poorly-run dictatorships that often gave lip service to their ideals. And “socialist” countries did well because they were capitalistic social democracies that actually took care of their citizens like Scandinavia. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/34 "2012-11-25T15:53:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > 1. Neither SSDI nor Social Security are means-tested. And they are “earned” in the sense that someone earned the approp[riate number of quarters to qualify the recipient 00 typically a parent or spouse. SSDI requires the recipient to have earned the required number of wage credits, not a parent or spouse. You are probably thinking of SSI. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/35 "2012-11-25T17:35:01Z")
So far the OP has failed to support the call for revocation of citizenship or for disqualification for statehood. Because there’s nothing to support that. Will get back to that after this: Just to restate **Polycarp** ’s points that got somehow garbled by the system: Across the USA, the norm is for a majority of SSDI claims to be initially refused and require a complicated appeal process; and SSDI is not means-tested but is vested by time-in-system like most of the rest of Social Security. Also, it is common for elderly and disabled people of Puerto Rican origin in the States to go back to the home soil and the extended family when they no longer can work, so we do get a bit of an unusual concentration of that group. As a 'Rican and a resident I can afford to acknowlege that there\*\*\* has\*\*\* been a sometimes tacit, sometimes explicit fostering of overreliance on benefits programs. In their failure to create enough self-sustaining economic opportunity, governments both pro- and anti- incorporation have fallen back on: \*“hey look over there: a Federal program!” \* > [@](#): > > I’d think that a large contributing factor to the proportion of disability in these poor areas is that any upwardly mobile people move away to get jobs, rather than sticking around to work. The only ones that are left are the ones who can’t work (or lazy fraudsters). Fact: the last census figures for PR showed the unexpected result of a net loss of population, with as many as a half million of us having moved stateside in the last decade. Should have eased employment pressures, yes? Well, not really: the unemployment number is slightly better BUT workforce _participation_ went\* down\*, to just\*\* below 40%\*\* in the last report. Survey says, those who left were mostly households headed by trained people in the prime productive group, seeking work opportunities elsewhere. There is a perception in some segments of the community of an unstated Fed policy in benefits programs, to say “yes” more often in Puerto Rico, even if the _amount_ of the approved benefit is lesser, so the non-productive group will not be tempted to move stateside “shopping” for benefits, and those stuck will not raise much of a ruckus. * * * Back to the OP incident, which BTW is a news report from _ **Sept. 2011** _, I knew it sounded familiar and had wondered why I wasn’t reading it in my papers: I say that the office that processes SSDI claims for Puerto Rico having fallen prey to corruption and fostered the growth of fraud rings to such an extent is a mark against the agency, its local partners, and the professionals advising and aiding workers to claim. Bust, perp-walk and fine those involved. Claiming it disqualifies a jurisdiction from the statehood process (which may I remind,\* nobody has actually initiated\*: there has only been a \*local \*vote on a _possible petition_ that the island government-elect does _not_ support) is a merely political rant. Like someone else said, where does this leave corruption-riddled communities in places of Illinois, New Jersey or Louisiana, or welfare-dependent Owsley County? Meanwhile, calling for people to be stripped of citizenship over benefits fraud is just ridiculous. The Unabomber is still a citizen. Ira Einhorn is still a citizen. The [Walkers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker#Spy_ring) are still citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/36 "2012-11-26T02:31:23Z")
PR surely is not unique wrt people “discovering” that they are “disabled” immediately after they lose their jobs. One aspect of SS disab law I consider odd wrt PR is that, once an individual has proven he/she is unable to perform their past work, an inability to read and write English is considered a highly disadvantageous vocational factor. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/37 "2012-11-26T14:57:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Without your consent, you mean? If you’re a naturalized citizen, yes, under [certain circumstances](http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-10285.html). If you’re a birthright citizen (like anyone born in Puerto Rico), no. For reals? Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/38 "2012-11-26T15:00:45Z")
For reals. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, though; you basically have to have obtained naturalization by fraud in the first place, or become a communist. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/39 "2012-11-26T15:07:35Z")
I was just surprised that natural born citizens cannot have the same happen to them. Do you know how much it would cost me to get my naturalization certificate replaced, if I were to lose it, as opposed to a birth certificate? A LOT. I’m not worried about it…I have no intentions of becoming a Commie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684/40 "2012-11-26T15:12:24Z")
Natural born citizens would mostly be rendered stateless if they lost citizenship, which violates a number of international conventions. The Constitution doesn’t prohibit discrimination of this sort because naturalization is considered to fall under “foreign policy” by SCOTUS, and Congress is given broad latitude in legislating in that area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stunning-statistic-disqualifies-puerto-rico-from-us-statehood/641684.md?page=3)