# Stupendous Stupidity in Science Fiction (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932 "2009-08-27T17:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/221 "2009-09-09T16:40:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _Alien Nation:_ Aliens of a species that evolved on (or was gene-engineered for) an environment near enough to Earth’s that they can breathe our air and eat our food . . . will dissolve in salt water. I didn’t have a problem with that per se, but it raised the question of why so many newcomers settled in coastal Los Angeles instead of nicely salt-water-remote Kansas or Colorado. _Star Trek: Insurrection_ deserves pages of scorn, but if I had to pick a single biggest gripe, it’d be why the ugly aliens were so eager to trash the planet where the pretty aliens lived, in the belief that the act of destruction would prettify the uglies, or something. Meantime, the characters discover that just staying on the planet for a few days helps significantly with boob-firming and such. So why don’t the ugly aliens just settle on the other side of the planet from the pretty aliens? The latter will never even know. Having portrayed this planet as a pseudo-magical fountain of youth, the writers feel compelled to introduce conflict by way of sheer stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/222 "2009-09-09T16:43:29Z")
I don’t get the impression _Starship Troopers_ (the novel) depicts a society that is automatically fascist any more than real-life societies that have mandatory military service (i.e. Switzerland) are automatically fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/223 "2009-09-09T17:12:20Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No, actually it didn’t and it’s not facism. A LOT of things are necessary for a worldview to be facist. Having one tenet that is shared with some forms of facism isn’t enough. That’s the equivalent of saying that someone who supports universal health care is a Communist. No, they are not most likely and definitely not necessarily. Yes, most Communist countries have universal health care, but wanting universal health care doesn’t make you a Communist. It’s the same thing here. Believing that there is going to be a struggle for resources between different species/nations doesn’t make you a facist just because facists believe that. For the love of all that is good and holy, the word is fa_ **s** _cism. It comes from the axe and sticks, not the front of your head. ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/224 "2009-09-09T17:50:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Regardless of whether or not Heinlein was depicting a fascist society, intentionally or not, the fact that we can debate it at all means, to me, that at some level the novel can be said to be about fascism. Argh. My brain. We can debate that Forever War is a treatise on the ills of gay relationships with only slightly less justification, and in both cases that fact that we can debate it doesn’t make it so. The one thing that bugs me, be it Star Wars, Star Trek, or anything else, is that they have scanners with enough resolution to detect how many ‘life forms’ are on board an escape pod. Something that small, travelling that fast, with enough shielding to withstand the heat of reentry, and you can scan it with something that tells you there are life forms on board, and that scanner won’t simply cook who/whatever is in the pod? And the scanner isn’t good enough to tell that are droids in it? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/225 "2009-09-09T18:38:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > For the love of all that is good and holy, the word is fa_ **s** _cism. It comes from the axe and sticks, not the front of your head. On the plus side, I can agree that \*Starship Troopers \*definitely wasn’t about facism. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/226 "2009-09-09T22:47:43Z")
In Frank Herbert’s _Dune_, the ruler of Arrakis has one priority which supersedes all others: the spice must flow. Without the spice melange, Guild navigators would not be able move cargo and passengers between star systems, and all commerce between these systems would cease. With light years between them, all worlds would become isolated and Imperial society would collapse. A few decades later Brian Herbert writes _Dune: Buttlerian Jihad_, wherein faster then light interstellar travel occurs **without** the spice and without the Spacing Guild. So, in this poorly written world given to us by a good author’s son, the spice is not all that important. It was a good thing for Paul Muad’Dib that no one knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/227 "2009-09-09T23:03:51Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > On the plus side, I can agree that \*Starship Troopers \*definitely wasn’t about facism. I disagree. Look at the cast list from that movie. They’re all very, very pretty people. What has that society done with the ugly people? Clearly, there’s some strain of facism at work in _Starship Troopers_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/228 "2009-09-09T23:15:50Z")
Michael Ironside is pretty, now? Jake Busey, too? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/229 "2009-09-09T23:40:51Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > In Frank Herbert’s _Dune_, the ruler of Arrakis has one priority which supersedes all others: the spice must flow. Without the spice melange, Guild navigators would not be able move cargo and passengers between star systems, and all commerce between these systems would cease. With light years between them, all worlds would become isolated and Imperial society would collapse. > > A few decades later Brian Herbert writes _Dune: Buttlerian Jihad_, wherein faster then light interstellar travel occurs **without** the spice and without the Spacing Guild. So, in this poorly written world given to us by a good author’s son, the spice is not all that important. It was a good thing for Paul Muad’Dib that no one knew that. IIRC, for FTL travel in the Duniverse you need either spice **or** artificial intelligence. The Bulterian Jihad wiped out and banned artificial intelligence, hence the importance of spice. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/230 "2009-09-10T00:50:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IIRC, for FTL travel in the Duniverse you need either spice **or** artificial intelligence. The Bulterian Jihad wiped out and banned artificial intelligence, hence the importance of spice. Yeah, but the humans in the younger Herbert’s book using AI for FTL travel doesn’t make sense either. Some of the humans there took the prohibition of machine minds so seriously that they used massive numbers of human slaves to do complex calculations rather than use calculators. Don’t get me wrong, I like the Dune novels (even once they started getting weird in _God Emperor_), it’s just that Brian Herbert is a much, much, much worse author than his father, and probably would have trouble selling his stuff if it not for his last name and the fact his books have ‘Dune’ in the title. ---
**Author:** ![LAV25](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/97f17d/32.png) [@LAV25](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAV25)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/231 "2009-09-10T02:11:44Z")
The Butlerian Jihad was awful! I gave my copy away (or shredded it, or something) but I remember being disgusted from the first couple pages. Maybe if someone still has a copy they can back me up, but space invasion, ships are coming in and maneuvering at massive G forces, which the book states would pulp, jelly, or otherwise smoosh any human. Two lines (or so) later it says that they’re piloted by human brains mounted in canning jars inside the ships. Or is the human brain the part of the body most resistant to massive G forces? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/232 "2009-09-10T03:39:43Z")
That might work, if the brains were floating in a medium of the same density as brain tissue. The only reason that you can’t do that for human bodies as a whole is that we’re not made up of tissue of uniform density. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/233 "2009-09-10T12:14:49Z")
In the Duniverse, wasn’t the main difficulty of FTL travel one of navigation (ending up where you want to be) rather than the physics of actually jumping? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/234 "2009-09-10T21:10:55Z")
Didn’t care for Brian Herbert’s additions to Dune. Read an excerpt of the first novel he came out with, a promo package to entice you to buy the book. In it, he decided to explain why Baron Harkonnen needed his lift belt\*. That pretty much decided me that I didn’t need to read any of the books. **Chronos** said: > [@](#): > > That might work, if the brains were floating in a medium of the same density as brain tissue. The only reason that you can’t do that for human bodies as a whole is that we’re not made up of tissue of uniform density. Wouldn’t changing g loads tend to slosh things around a bit? Hmmm, if hard packed in a jello-type medium with the same density, there wouldn’t be any air or such to go sloshing. The same density keeps the brain from moving around in the packing material. Hmmmm. **Lumpy** said: > [@](#): > > In the Duniverse, wasn’t the main difficulty of FTL travel one of navigation (ending up where you want to be) rather than the physics of actually jumping? IIRC, yes, the navigating is what the _Navigators_ do that requires the spice. They see the right paths through the space field. That is what the computers did before the Butlerian Jihad. * * * - Baron Harkonnen was described in _Dune_ as being “grossly fat”, as in oversized, huge, bigger than a VW, can’t stand up under his own power fat. He didn’t need an explanation for needing the lift belt, the explanation was that he was a fat, fat, fat lazy glutton with no interest in his appearance. He needed the belt because he was fat and lazy, not because he was poisoned with some toxin that made his muscles weak. GRRRRRR. Someone slap Brian Herbert right now. I hate it when authors/shows “explain” something that doesn’t need an explanation. Like the new Star Trek deciding to “explain” why McCoy is named “Bones”. STUPID! Unnecessary! Ridiculous! [/rant] ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/235 "2009-09-10T21:39:11Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I hate it when authors/shows “explain” something that doesn’t need an explanation. Like the new Star Trek deciding to “explain” why McCoy is named “Bones”. STUPID! Unnecessary! Ridiculous! [/rant] It might not have been strictly necessary but I thought it was funny. In particular, it played on previously established canon that Dr. McCoy had a disastrously failed marriage, and it matches his general penchant for grumbling. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/236 "2009-09-10T21:53:43Z")
The wife of captain Kirk decides to give birth when the starship is under attack-why didn’t they just chuck mom into the transporter? Later, the brat is driving an antique Mustang automobile (at 90 MPH) on a rural road in Iowa-where did the Grand Canyon come from? Later, young Kirk ( a brawling alcoholic) gets an appointment to the starfleet academy-where he is caught dry-humping a comely green female cadet. After that, the whole thing blows up, with weird time travel (young Spock meets old Spock).A total mess. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/237 "2009-09-10T21:57:03Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The wife of captain Kirk decides to give birth when the starship is under attack-why didn’t they just chuck mom into the transporter? Generally speaking, pregnant women don’t choose when they give birth. It just sort of happens when it happens. As for putting her into a transporter… transport her to _where_, exactly? > [@](#): > > Later, the brat is driving an antique Mustang automobile (at 90 MPH) on a rural road in Iowa-where did the Grand Canyon come from? That wasn’t the Grand Canyon, it was just a large stone quarry. > [@](#): > > Later, young Kirk ( a brawling alcoholic) gets an appointment to the starfleet academy-where he is caught dry-humping a comely green female cadet. …and? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/238 "2009-09-10T22:04:59Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The wife of captain Kirk decides to give birth when the starship is under attack-why didn’t they just chuck mom into the transporter? > Later, the brat is driving an antique Mustang automobile (at 90 MPH) on a rural road in Iowa-where did the Grand Canyon come from? > Later, young Kirk ( a brawling alcoholic) gets an appointment to the starfleet academy-where he is caught dry-humping a comely green female cadet. > After that, the whole thing blows up, with weird time travel (young Spock meets old Spock).A total mess. Sorry, what thread did you mean to post in? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/239 "2009-09-10T22:52:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Generally speaking, pregnant women don’t choose when they give birth. It just sort of happens when it happens. As for putting her into a transporter… transport her to _where_, exactly? > > That wasn’t the Grand Canyon, it was just a large stone quarry. > > …and? and it was a CORVETTE fer chrissakes! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932/240 "2009-09-10T23:33:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Later, young Kirk ( a brawling alcoholic) gets an appointment to the starfleet academy-where he is caught dry-humping a comely green female cadet. That’s about the only part of the movie that I believe comes from the series. ^:dubious:^ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupendous-stupidity-in-science-fiction-open-spoilers/507932.md?page=13)