# Stupid fucks who believe in magic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202 "2001-04-24T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/201 "2001-04-26T14:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you hold that no scientists are arrogant bigots? If not, will you stand with me in rebuking them? Of course, there are scientists who are bigoted bullies, and yes, they should be rebuked. I’m just curious how you define bigotry. BTW, there are many scientists who are deeply religious, including Christians who believe that through doing science they are in a position to appreciate God’s handiwork. > [@](#): > > O.K. Let’s limit the discussion on this thread to people who believe that, through chanting and/or ritual, they can influence the material world. IMHO, they are self-delusional wishful thinkers. I’ll drink to that! I’m not sure if the pagans are claiming to be able to do what the rest of us call “magic” or not. I don’t think **Hastur** , **Dogsbody** , **Luna Sea** , et alia, have said they can twitch their noses and turn people into chairs, a la Endora on \* Bewitched.\* I have seen no evidence that supernatural intervention, including spells, prayers, and High John the Conquerer root, has any power to interfere with the material world, but if chanting or praying make people happy and are not substituted for medical treatment, it’s no skin off my nose. However, anyone who claims they can cast a spell and heal my busted arm is welcome to try. I suspect any healing magic would take 6 to 8 weeks to work. 😛 A note on respect: I am a stone atheist. I absolutely reject belief in anything supernatural. However, just because I think that theists, poly- and mono-, are talking to empty air does not give me the right to treat their beliefs with disrespect. **Jab1** should consider the idea that it is more important to be courteous and to treat other people kindly, no matter how mistaken he believes them to be, than to be right. I don’t always live up to this myself, but I try. I know this is the Pit, but I save my rudeness for those who really deserve it. Indiscriminate, blanket attacks on an inoffensive class of people make you look like a schmuck. I busted on **Libertarian** not because he’s a Christian, but because he dissed reason and investigation as “bigotry.” ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/202 "2001-04-26T14:56:34Z")
To **Jodi, Goboy, IceWolf** and the others who defended Paganism against **Jab1’s** hateful onslaught, I say “THANK YOU” !! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/203 "2001-04-26T15:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > To Jodi, Goboy, IceWolf and the others who defended Paganism against Jab1’s hateful onslaught, I say “THANK YOU” !! I’m not among the mentioned, buy you’re welcome nevertheless. > [@](#): > > Of course, there are scientists who are bigoted bullies, and yes, they should be rebuked. I’m just curious how you define bigotry. I thought you actually _read_ the post you’re fuming about. Bigotry is defined there. > [@](#): > > BTW, there are many scientists who are deeply religious, including Christians who believe that through doing science they are in a position to appreciate God’s handiwork. Then they’re not bigots, are they? Unless they’re arrogant and ignorant. > [@](#): > > I busted on Libertarian not because he’s a Christian, but because he dissed reason and investigation as “bigotry.” It is you, my friend, and not I who diss reason and investigation by your blatant misrepresentation of my post, which is all the more remarkable because it still there for the whole world to see. As are your amazing lies about it. Hell, even Spiritus, who, as far as I can recall, has never agreed with me on much of anything — even _he_ understood what I was saying, and like the gentleman that he is, he explained, or tried to explain, that I was talking about arrogance and ignorance (bigotry), not science. Let’s hope you examine your science data with more care and discernment than you do my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/204 "2001-04-26T15:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Falcon \* > \*\*Even the people over at the Pizza Parlor are nicer, and most of them think I’m going to hell. \*\* Psssst! Falcon! Don’t worry. It isn’t up to them. Tris ---
**Author:** ![TPWombat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbce88/32.png) [@TPWombat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TPWombat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/205 "2001-04-26T16:21:54Z")
**{{{{{{{{{SDMB}}}}}}}}** I love you all. Unconditionally (or as close as I can get at this point in my spiritual evolution 😉 ) Thank you for being part of my life. OK. Just thought this thread could use a hug. Be well. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/206 "2001-04-26T16:43:41Z")
And a butterfly. At last. Perspective restored. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/207 "2001-04-26T17:57:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Too many scientists think that the kind of stuff they prove is the only kind of stuff that matters. It isn’t. Too many scientists think that the scientific method is the only legitimate way to verify truth. It isn’t. Too many scientists think science is the opposite of ignorance. It isn’t. I take it this is what you are calling bigotry, which is misused in this context, I think. Science **is** the opposite of ignorance. Can science solve philosophical problems, can it assure the soul’s salvation? No, but **nobody ever said it did.** > [@](#): > > It’s all well and good that science discovered how to split the atom. Unfortunately, it did not discover a way to stop mad politicians from making nuclear bombs. It’s good that science has figured out what foods make us healthy, and what vitamin deficiencies make us sick. But it hasn’t showed us how to love each other enough to end starvation. It’s fine that science has mapped out the human genome. But I can guarantee you that you cannot yet even imagine the evil purposes toward which that knowledge will be used eventually You are asking science to solve questions outside of its purview. The care of the soul is the province of religion and philosophy, not science. > [@](#): > > The present generation of scientific bigots is not exceptional. For thousands of years, men have declared their pitiful knowledge at the time to be the end of the road. “So and so can’t happen because of so-and-so.” Or “so-and-so is true because of so-and-so.” And there are scientists, even in this day and age, who declare that believers in God or magick or anything that hasn’t been through the scientific method’s sieve is somehow foolhardy. I’ll say it one more time: science has no position on the existence of God, or miracles, or any other untestable proposition. You can be a chemist or geologist and be a believing Christian. Anybody telling you anything else is full of it. Now if you assert that cavemen lived with dinosaurs, THAT can be tested, and therefore is subject to scientific analysis. > [@](#): > > It is you, my friend, and not I who diss reason and investigation by your blatant misrepresentation of my post, which is all the more remarkable because it still there for the whole world to see. As are your amazing lies about it. I think I’ve quoted you fairly and I have not lied once. You picked this fight, not I. And I submit that your rude and uncharitable conduct has utterly contradicted your proclaimed faith in Jesus. Nobody expects much out of atheists, but Christians are supposed to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world. **Polycarp** and \*\* Triskadekamus\*\* show humility, faith, and the influence of the Holy Spirit in their posts. You do not. You are a poor advocate for Jesus,and He is ashamed of you, I have no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/208 "2001-04-26T18:15:57Z")
Well, you’re right about _that_ at least. Just seeing Tris, just being reminded of him makes me tremble. As fortune would have it, he will be a guest in our home this weekend. We have nothing special planned. He’ll just blend in with our day-to-day affairs. We thought he’d prefer it that way. I must say that I feel something like a tax collector to whose home Jesus is bound. My post about bigots (in which I said nothing about “souls”) stands as is. It is my anger over your mistreatment of it that has abated. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/209 "2001-04-26T18:23:29Z")
**Lib** , sorry, I didn’t mean to leave you out, I was trying to be inclusive with the “others” in my sentence. Mea culpa, mea culpa! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/210 "2001-04-26T19:18:57Z")
_rubs forhead_…Where to begin. Ok, how about this… > [@](#): > > Czarcasm said: > \*O.K. Let’s limit the discussion on this thread to people who believe that, through chanting and/or ritual, they can influence the material world. > IMHO, they are self-delusional wishful thinkers > \* “I (blank) do solomly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help me God” Sound familiar? It should. Anyone testifying in a court of law says something similar. It’s said before every witness takes the stand. Looks like a ritual to me. I mean, do you honestly expect those few words to somehow magically (sorry, couldn’t resist) make a person tell the truth? That just by making them chant those words, they will somehow be unable to speak a lie? Now I’m sure you’re going to say that those words are merely symbolic. That what’s actually going to make the person be truthful is the fear of legal ramifications if they’re caught lying. That the phrase is a representation of the laws that work in the background that **most people don’t understand** that ensure truthful testimony. Perhaps similarly the chants and spells that people use are a mere representation of invoking a set of laws that may not be understood by most people. Jab1 I take it then that you don’t have Faith? Then how can you drive a car? How can you eat canned food? Especially those that contain chemicals. How do you fly in a plane? Are you telling me that you **know** how each of these things works? In detail? That **you** know how the flow of electricity and interaction of modern filaments works so that when you flip the switch, the light comes on? While I don’t know you, I highly doubt that you understand totally how most things that you use in everyday life really work. But you take it on faith that someone somewhere does. How can you assume then that someone somewhere doesn’t have knowledge on how to do something that may seem “magical” to you? Have you spoken to every person in the world? Have you visited every monastery? every temple? spoken to every person that lives apart from people and practices things that you don’t believe in? Are you so positive that “science” has an answer to everything in the Universe? And doesn’t it seem a bit egotistical to imagine that we here on this earth. After (and I’m being generous here) 1000 years of study, know the answers to every question in the universe? There are \*\* trees \*\* that have been living longer than any modern branch of science. Yet you honestly think that we know all? Can see all? While I don’t think anyone can shoot fire from their eyes, I’m not nearly confident enough to state that we understand everything, or to rule out the existence of a “deity” that is beyond our understanding. Ask dolly the sheep if she thinks we’re gods. Then ask yourself this. If we can create life, who’s to say that someone else can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/211 "2001-04-26T20:09:31Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=68948](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=68948) ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/212 "2001-04-26T20:14:34Z")
I would like to reply to **Atrael** > [@](#): > > I take it then that you don’t have Faith? Then how can you drive a car? How can you eat canned food? Especially those that contain chemicals. How do you fly in a plane? Are you telling me that you know how each of these things works? In detail? That you know how the flow of electricity and interaction of modern filaments works so that when you flip the switch, the light comes on? I don’t need faith to use these things. They exist, they are there, and they work without faith. Perhaps you don’t understand how they work, but those of us who paid attention in school and actively look at and try to understand the world do have a fair grasp of them. > [@](#): > > While I don’t know you, I highly doubt that you understand totally how most things that you use in everyday life really work. But you take it on faith that someone somewhere does. Again, no faith involved. Every year there is a new model of car, or a new electrical gadget that anyone can use. The fact that these new devices are built in factories by normal human beings proves that someone, somewhere understands these things fully. > [@](#): > > How can you assume then that someone somewhere doesn’t have knowledge on how to do something that may seem “magical” to you? I would bet you that if they provide a fair and repeatable demonstration, then someone can find out how it works and duplicate it without the mumbo-jumbo. > [@](#): > > Are you so positive that “science” has an answer to everything in the Universe? And doesn’t it seem a bit egotistical to imagine that we here on this earth. After (and I’m being generous here) 1000 years of study, know the answers to every question in the universe? There are trees that have been living longer than any modern branch of science. Yet you honestly think that we know all? Can see all? “Science” doesn’t have answers. Science is a methodology that you use to find answers. Religions claim to have all the answers. Science will help you find real answers. > [@](#): > > While I don’t think anyone can shoot fire from their eyes, I’m not nearly confident enough to state that we understand everything, or to rule out the existence of a “deity” that is beyond our understanding. I have yet to see convincing proof of a deity. Please don’t point me at the Christian Bible. It is too poorly written and self contradictory to take seriously. > [@](#): > > Ask dolly the sheep if she thinks we’re gods. Then ask yourself this. If we can create life, who’s to say that someone else can’t? The guys who cloned Dolly did not create life. They coaxed a natural process into doing something that it wouldn’t ordinarily do, namely to produce a near perfect copy of the sheep whose cells they took to do their experiment. Go ahead and ask Dolly if she thinks we are gods. You may have a little trouble finding an english to sheeptalk translator, however. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/213 "2001-04-26T20:14:45Z")
And doesn’t it seem a bit egotistical to imagine that we here on this earth. After (and I’m being generous here) 1000 years of study, know the answers to every question in the universe? There are trees that have been living longer than any modern branch of science. Yet you honestly think that we know all? Can see all? [/quote] The idea that every facet of human existence can be explained through science is called “scientism,” and it is no less superstitious than believing in elves and fairies. There are tons of things currently unknown to science: Can artificial intelligence be created? What is the ultimate fate of the universe? Why can’t we cure the common cold? How did life begin? Is there an asteroid out there with our name on it? and so on. It seems to me that the posters in this thread fall into two camps: people who use reason to sort out sense from nonsense and people who prefer mysteries and magic. Some people might look at the stars and prefer to think that they are magic andles lit by invisible spirits. Others, measuring starlight and figuring out their distance and composition, open the door to deeper wonders. I find it aesthetically much more magical and beautiful to think that whne I look at the light from the three stars that form Orion’s Belt, that I’m looking at light that left the stars whne the Vikings were burning monasteries in Ireland and the Anasazi were farming in Arizona. The three stars, Alnilam, Alnitak, and Mintaka, are blue-white supergiants roughly about 1,100 light years from earth and only a few million years old. Because they are so big and hot, they’re fusing hydrogen into helium at so fast a rate that they will burn out in just a couple of million more years. Isn’t that a lot more interesting than magic candles in the sky? What I find exceptionally cool about science is that it’s always finding out new questions to answer, new mysteries to explore. Every time we find out a new facet of how the universe works, that knowledge leads us to ask questions we had never even dreamed of before. If you settle for folk beliefs for easy answers; Thor makes the thunder; you get sick because you sinned; volcanoes erupt because the gods are angry; then you are settling for a life without knowledge or curiousity. In superstition, there are no advances, no more questions to be answered. Every issue is settled and stagnant.In science, however, there are infinite mysteries of things we had never before imagined. Astrology as practiced today has not changed in thousands of years. Casting horoscopes has not changed since ancient Rome. There have been no advances. Astrology is stagnant and dead, not mention wildly inaccurate. In astronomy, however, we are always learning about black holes, dark matter, superstring theory, and a host of other marvels. Who knows what we’ll learn tomorrow? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/214 "2001-04-26T22:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\* If you settle for folk beliefs for easy answers; Thor makes the thunder; you get sick because you sinned; volcanoes erupt because the gods are angry; then you are settling for a life without knowledge or curiousity. In superstition, there are no advances, no more questions to be answered. Every issue is settled and stagnant.In science, however, there are infinite mysteries of things we had never before imagined._\* \ Goboy, you are _good_! \ Seriously, that post was beautiful both in it’s accuracy and poetry. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/215 "2001-04-26T22:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Who knows what we’ll learn tomorrow? At last, we’ve found common ground. Thanks, Goboy. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/216 "2001-04-26T22:21:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > **There are tons of things currently unknown to science: > Why can’t we cure the common cold?** Actually, we know this: It’s because there are so many different [viruses](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcold.html) which can cause a cold. It’s also because [viruses may not even be alive.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000204.html) The rest of the items on your list are truly unexplained at this time. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/217 "2001-04-26T23:47:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > You cannot prove your thesis which, at bottom, is that no God exists. You know this, or ought to, since it’s been done to death right here on the Board. Do not give me any nonsense about proving a negative; it is possible to prove the affirmative absence of something. I do not have to prove that God exists because quite frankly I have nothing invested in saying He does. Sorry, I don’t understand any of this. First there isn’t a thesis that ‘God doesn’t exist’. Believers say that ‘God exists’. But they don’t offer any evidence. So the scientific method says ‘without evidence, your thesis is worthless. Find evidence!’. Secondly, what is ‘affirmative absence of something’? Next, you may well not have anything invested in the existence of God. But plenty of people make money out of religion, so they do have a vested interest in perpetuating it. As I said, the scientific method likes proof - it’s nothing to do with faith. > [@](#): > > The whole point of “magick,” as I understand it, is that it is something other than scientific. Hence the term “supernatural”. I don’t agree with your use of scientific here. Science examines things to see how they work. It uses evidence and experiments to construct theories. If someone can demonstrate levitation, that would \*\* instantly \*\* need a scientific explanation, and every scientist in the relevant fields had better get busy. At a stroke all theories that don’t permit levitation would be thrown out. So science reacts to evidence, and has clear definitions. Magick however seems reluctant to do anything detectable. If you want to have a ceremony with your friends, that’s fine with me. I’m sure you will feel better. Similarly, I like to have a good meal with my friends. This has the same effects - we feel happy (and full!) 😃 . Science would say that the common denominator here (and hence the likely cause) is spending time with friends. ‘Man is a social animal’ or similar. There’s also the placebo effect - if you do something you think will make you feel better, it probably will - just because of your self-belief. But none of this proves that magick exists. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/218 "2001-04-27T01:21:45Z")
GLEE – > [@](#): > > First there isn’t a thesis that ‘God doesn’t exist’. Of course there is. If I affirmatively state, and offer to defend, “there is no God” then that is my thesis. It is “thesis” as in “hypothesis,” at least in the realm of science, and “there is no God” is a perfectly fine thesis. It’s just unprovable, as is “there is a God.” > [@](#): > > Believers say that ‘God exists’. But they don’t offer any evidence. So the scientific method says ‘without evidence, your thesis is worthless. Find evidence!’. Surely you see that this is equally applicable to unbelievers who say “God does not exist.” Science says to them equally “without evidence, your thesis is worthless. Find evidence!” > [@](#): > > Secondly, what is ‘affirmative absence of something’? It is the proven absence of something. I can prove, as an affirmative (or positive) proposition, that I was not out dancing last night. (I was at work with other unfortunate colleagues – i.e., witnesses.) It can be proven (and has been proven) that zinc does _not_ improve the common cold. It can be proven that people can_not_ breathe underwater. Just because these theses all contain negative language does not transform them into negative _propositions_. They are still affirmative (positive) propositions, subject to positive proof. So, in theory, would the idea of God be, if He was natural/rational/subject to proof in the first place. But since God, as a belief or an idea, is not subject to proof (any more than any other purely abstract concept is) at all, His existence can neither be proven nor disproven. > [@](#): > > Next, you may well not have anything invested in the existence of God. But plenty of people make money out of religion, so they do have a vested interest in perpetuating it. Don’t get me wrong; I have plenty invested in the existence of God. I just don’t make a point of attempting to cram my beliefs down other people’s throats, nor do I have anything invested in proving _to you_ that I am right, such as would lead me to be snotty and disdainful about whatever it is you happen to believe. The context of my comments is this thread, and this thread alone – not everyone in the wide world who might make money off religion. (BTW, JAB has very gracefully apologized for his attitude; I bring it up not to jump on him again but to explain the context of my remarks, though frankly I thought that was evident.) > [@](#): > > As I said, the scientific method likes proof - it’s nothing to do with faith. Sigh. I have never said that the scientific method has anything to do with faith. The scientific method is explicitly limited to that which is quantifiable and testable, and therefore has nothing whatsoever to do with faith, which is definitionally the acceptance of a thesis in the absence of proof. > [@](#): > > I don’t agree with your use of scientific here. I consider that a quibble, but have no argument with you making it. I do reserve the right to quibble back, however. > [@](#): > > Science examines things to see how they work. It uses evidence and experiments to construct theories. And here is my quibble: This is not correct. Science uses experiment to prove theories, not to construct them. Hypothesis precedes experiment, or how do you know what you are experimenting for? > [@](#): > > If you want to have a ceremony with your friends, that’s fine with me. I’m sure you will feel better. You seem to have the thread cast members mixed up, which is no surprise without a program. The only religious “ceremonies” I routinely attend are Protestant Sunday services. > [@](#): > > Similarly, I like to have a good meal with my friends. This has the same effects - we feel happy (and full!). I doubt very much it has the same effect as participating in a religious ritual, unless you find a good meal to be spiritually, as well as corporeally, fulfilling. > [@](#): > > Science would say that the common denominator here (and hence the likely cause) is spending time with friends. ‘Man is a social animal’ or similar. There’s also the placebo effect - if you do something you think will make you feel better, it probably will - just because of your self-belief. Actually, “science” as a general proposition recognizes the extra-rationality of religion as a whole – recognizes, in effect, that it can have nothing to do with religion since religious beliefs are totally unamenable to proof. Science therefore generally does not try to explain (in the sense of proving) religion at all. Therefore, science would not embrace either of your theses above, since they, like almost everything else involving religion, are unprovable. > [@](#): > > But none of this proves that magick exists. I never said that magick existed; personally, I don’t believe it does. My point is that if you or JAB or anyone else cannot prove that magick does _not_ exist – and you can’t, at least not as the term is used by most of the posters here – then you ought not to be derisive about it. I realize that you, personally, have not been derisive, but “you shouldn’t oughta do that” was the point (and the only point) I was trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![\_Uigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e9a140/32.png) [@\_Uigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Uigi)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/219 "2001-04-27T02:03:43Z")
WhhhhoooooooooooosssssssHHHHHHHhHHHHhhHHHhhhHHhhhHhhhhh! (Sorry for the racket folks; just my mother-in-law on her B-52 model broom making a low pass; she’s late for a lesson on frog boiling) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2001, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/220 "2001-04-27T12:41:17Z")
Jodi, you seem to be a litle unclear on the concept. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Now, which of these claims are more extraordinary? 1. Magic, a process which defies scientific princple, exists. 2. Magic, because no evidence has ever been shown for it’s existance, does not exist. People that claim that magic exists, and that they can perform it, are the ones who should be providing the evidence, IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=12)