# Stupid fucks who believe in magic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202 "2001-04-24T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/301 "2001-05-04T13:14:02Z")
First off, sorry for the multiple post. I swear to you the damn thing told me it couldn’t get a response from the server. Secondly, I don’t either side is going to convince the other. After sitting back and thinking, what I’m debating isn’t the same as what you’re asking Jab. I in know what believe that there is anyone that can perform the feats that you’ve talked about (i.e. fireballs and such). However, a few points I want to make since religion has gotten lumped in here also. Monty– The point of my post about the oath taken as a witness wasn’t that it actually **caused** anything to happen. The debate since that point in the conversation has changed. At that point, I was giving an example of a _ritual_ that is used daily. Not that it proved that someone chanting something can make a physical alteration in the world, just that something that can be considered ritualistic is used all the time. Also, I brought up the whole 5 + 5 thing a page ago, and you’ve lost point of my original intention with that example. What I said was that the answer 5 + 5 = 10 is not the only answer to the question: “What two numbers can be added together to arrive at an answer of 10”? While Libertarian had done a great job in showing that the framework that we base our logic on does indeed have a basis in a common agreement that is basically arbitrary, that was much more complex a debate than what I was talking about. Crunchy Frog and Amedeus – You’ve both used the example of the car starting every day, not being an example of faith. Ok, let me relate a few things that have happened in my life. In my early 20’s, I had been a tad irresponsible with finances. I had gotten to the point that I was writing checks, and depositing the cash in my account, to cover other checks that would have bounced. I was getting farther and farther behind every payday. Just about when it got to the point that I actually couldn’t cover what I had written with my entire paycheck, I got a phone call. It was a bank that I had set up an account with 3 years earlier. I had forgotten all about it, but about $20 a paycheck had been going in that account for about 2 years. I’m not sure how they got my phone number, since I was on the other side of the country from where I had opened the account, but they informed me that I had several hundred dollars in the account, and what would I like to do with it? It was almost the exact amount that I was behind in my current bank. Now I suppose you could call that a coincidence, that they literally called the day that I needed it, I don’t. Just a few years ago, I decided that I needed to move from Ohio to Virginia to help my mother with some of the burden of taking care of my grandmother. My fiancée at the time and I packed everything up, and drove down on June 20th. No jobs, no set place we would be living, hadn’t even sent out any resumes. Within a day of arriving, we found a great apartment that we both loved, however, putting the 3 month deposit on it (because we weren’t employed) took most of the savings we had. We were left with about 2 months worth of cash to tide us by. Within a week of getting to Virginia, my grandmother took sick, and had to be rushed to a hospital. I was able to spend almost every day with her talking, and just being there with her. I sent out a total of 3 resumes while in the area. I went for one interview, and 2 days after my grandmother passed, I was hired at a good salary. My fiancée got a job before I did, but since she’s a teacher, she was able to stay with me the whole time. Now again, I suppose that you could look at that series of events and say it’s all due to random chance that it worked out that way, that those examples, as well as a ton more that have happened to me in my life are just “luck”. I take it as a sign that my faith is not misplaced. How can I believe in a deity that I can’t see or understand? Because it works for me…every day of my life, just like your car does for you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/302 "2001-05-04T15:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Atrael \* > Monty– > The point of my post about the oath taken as a witness wasn’t that it actually **caused** anything to happen. Then you should’ve made that point without the false assertion that the oath is taken by every witness. It’s not. > [@](#): > > Also, I brought up the whole 5 + 5 thing a page ago, and you’ve lost point of my original intention with that example. What I said was that the answer 5 + 5 = 10 is not the only answer to the question: “What two numbers can be added together to arrive at an answer of 10”? While Libertarian had done a great job in showing that the framework that we base our logic on does indeed have a basis in a common agreement that is basically arbitrary, that was much more complex a debate than what I was talking about. Whilst the equation x+y=10 has numerous solutions for x and y, the equation 5+5=c only returns one value for c. In either case, all those values (x,y,c) are ALL part of the accepted elements of the SCIENCE of mathematics. There is nothing to be conjured in those two equations. To say otherwise is merely specious. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/303 "2001-05-04T19:20:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Then you should’ve made that point without the false assertion that the oath is taken by every witness. It’s not. Yes, it is. Go back and read your own link. Every single person takes some sort of oath before they testify. Or someone else chants the oath, and they agree to it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Whilst the equation x+y=10 has numerous solutions for x and y, the equation 5+5=c only returns one value for c. In either case, all those values (x,y,c) are ALL part of the accepted elements of the SCIENCE of mathematics. There is nothing to be conjured in those two equations. To say otherwise is merely specious. Let’s look at the original equation again, since everyone seems to be missing the point. x + y = 10 . If that is our question, then both x and y have an infinite number of possible values. Leading to an infinite number of possible solutions. Not only the ones we \*\* know\*\* about, but also many that wouldn’t even \*\*occur \*\* to us because at this stage of our mental development, we cannot comprehend infinity with a complete understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Amedeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Amedeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amedeus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/304 "2001-05-04T19:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > **Libertarian** > “Scientists” who dismiss Peano cast no light on him, but on themselves and their own ignorance. > [@](#): > > **Amedeus** > _I have never claimed to be a Scientist_ > I do not see why it takes a scientist to defend the scientific method. Why by that logic, you would need to be a priest to defend the bible. People who cannot **read** shed light upon their own ignorance. I feel this Axiom is uneeded to prove 5 and 5 makes 10. I am not a mathmatician, so I cannot say with conviction. (I.e I could be dead fucking wrong) However, I have yet to see how it is necessary. Other than a mathmatical excersice of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/305 "2001-05-04T20:11:31Z")
I’m not going to join in the 5 + 5 debate or the name calling, I just want someone to answer my questions. Purdy please? As I said on the other thread, I apologize if this sounds sarcastic, I don’t mean it to, but why is so much time and thought needed for what seems to be simple answers? I am not baiting with my questions, I am sincerely curious and would really like someone to give me simple answers without the off the wall debates or back biting arguments. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/306 "2001-05-04T20:15:55Z")
\*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by heembo \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Freaks to the left of me, > > freaks to the right, > > here I am > > stuck in the middle with you… > > And just because I love this song, I feel compelled to point out the lyrics are: > **Clowns** to the left of me > **Jokers** to the right > Here I am > Stuck in the middle with you I think it’s plainly obvious that **heembo** was parodying the song to express his feelings. Haven’t you ever done that? ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/307 "2001-05-04T20:20:00Z")
Diane– I haven’t forgotten, but between the slowness of the board, and my general lack of time due to work, I haven’t had time to sit and write up a response to you. I’ll get to that first thing Monday, before I answer anything else…promise. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/308 "2001-05-04T20:32:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\*If you do not accept the Peano axioms (which Lib has kindly supplied above) _on faith_, you cannot deduce that 5+5=10. …before we can begin to apply logic to the problem, we have to accept on faith that number theory works. \*\* No, we accept Peano’s axioms and theorems because they explain a real-world phenomenon, that 5+5 always equals 10. What Peano did was demonstrate HOW 5+5 always equals 10. That isn’t faith. That’s science (of mathematics). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/309 "2001-05-04T21:15:19Z")
> [@](#): > > However, I have yet to see how it is necessary. Its necessity is directly proportional to the amount of license you will allow. If you’re going to allow someone to declare the existence of a quantity without first defining the nature of a cardinality, then you can end up with some severe nonsense. In other words, if you do not contextualize 5 + 5 = 10 as an abstract property of natural numbers derived from the Peano axioms (especially the Induction Axiom), then you cannot refute that 5 cucumbers plus 5 fishing boats equals 10 cigarettes. You haven’t defined your universal set and its elements. Sloppy reasoning is anathema to science. Consider the man who first mixes vodka with water and gets drunk, then mixes gin with water and gets drunk, then finally mixes whiskey with water and gets drunk. The sloppy scientist, who does not comprehend the epistemological basis of his own discipline, might easily conclude that water, as a common element of each trial, made the man drunk. This is the kind of stuff the Creation Research Institute does. Whoever is going to set up the controls for controlled experiments had better understand set theory and logic, and be capable to express them in clear, exacting language. The epistemological basis of the scientific method is repeatability. There is nothing that could require more exacting control. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/310 "2001-05-04T21:18:23Z")
I’m not going to join in the 5 + 5 debate or the name calling, I just want someone to answer my questions. Purdy please? As I said on the other thread, I apologize if this sounds sarcastic, I don’t mean it to, but why is so much time and thought needed for what seems to be simple answers? I am not baiting with my questions, I am sincerely curious and would really like someone to give me simple answers without the off the wall debates or back biting arguments. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/311 "2001-05-04T21:41:40Z")
Jab: Assuming that you accept challenges as willingly as you mete them out, I challenge you to prove the Induction Axiom (or any of Peano’s axioms). Meanwhile, faith is “belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence”. You have no logical proof, nor any material evidence, that for every x, if x is a natural number then so is x’. But you believe it, based primarily on two things: (1) extrapolation of your own experience, a valid epistemology and (2) argumentum ad popularum, a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/312 "2001-05-04T22:43:17Z")
And just how in the hell am I supposed to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/313 "2001-05-04T22:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Atrael \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > > Then you should’ve made that point without the false assertion that the oath is taken by every witness. It’s not. > > Yes, it is. Go back and read your own link. Every single person takes some sort of oath before they testify. Or someone else chants the oath, and they agree to it. Good grief! I must assume you’re at least partially illiterate to assume that Cecil’s words > [@](#): > > When a witness refuses to swear to God, the court accepts an “affirmation” instead. In a jury trial, the smart lawyer will arrange for this ahead of time in the judge’s chambers, so the witness won’t look unduly obstreperous or morally deficient in open court. The judge may then instruct the jury that the funny oath they are about to hear should be considered legally valid. means that even athiests swear to an oath when it’s obvious from his answer that the atheist has agreed to tell the truth. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > > Whilst the equation x+y=10 has numerous solutions for x and y, the equation 5+5=c only returns one value for c. In either case, all those values (x,y,c) are ALL part of the accepted elements of the SCIENCE of mathematics. There is nothing to be conjured in those two equations. To say otherwise is merely specious. > > Let’s look at the original equation again, since everyone seems to be missing the point. x + y = 10 . If that is our question, then both x and y have an infinite number of possible values. Leading to an infinite number of possible solutions. And all of those values being part and parcel of the DEFINED system of Mathematics, a particular SCIENCE. > [@](#): > > Not only the ones we \*\* know\*\* about, but also many that wouldn’t even \*\*occur \*\* to us because at this stage of our mental development, we cannot comprehend infinity with a complete understanding. Nope. No prize for you here either! The SET of solutions for the MATHEMATICAL EXPRESSION x+y=10 is infinite (another MATHEMATICAL TERM, btw); however, ALL MEMBERS of that INFINITE SET are PART OF THE MATHEMATICAL SYSTEM. Just because you fail to understand that math is a science doesn’t mean the rest of humanity is as brain dead. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/314 "2001-05-04T23:32:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > > \*\*If you do not accept the Peano axioms (which Lib has kindly supplied above) _on faith_, you cannot deduce that 5+5=10. …before we can begin to apply logic to the problem, we have to accept on faith that number theory works. \*\* > > No, we accept Peano’s axioms and theorems because they explain a real-world phenomenon, that 5+5 always equals 10. In your experience. > [@](#): > > What Peano did was demonstrate HOW 5+5 always equals 10. He demonstrated the conditions that are required to be able to deduce that 5+5=10 every time. Discovered the unproveable assumptions that lie at the root of number theory. When discussing mathematics, we naturally take these as axiomatic, since we all agree on them. However, in a debate about the existence of God, or magic, one has to be sure of both sides assuming the same axioms as valid, otherwise nothing can be resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/315 "2001-05-07T12:56:19Z")
Diane, Ok, here’s my response to your questions. Note that I’m not speaking for everyone, just myself. \*\*1. Can you perform magic? Yes or no. \*\* Depends on what you consider magic. I know I know, but before you freak on me, let me explain. I personally have a strong belief in a “God”. I believe in divine intervention. Therefore, I also have to believe in something like “magic”. I also believe that if you really **need** something, you’ll get it. Now the method that you get this help can probably be labeled “coincidental”. I personally believe this is really a helping hand from “God”. So no, I don’t think I can wave my hand and make water into wine. Because there’s no real **need** for me to. So I guess that I have to answer that questions as a ‘NO’ \*\*2. What can you do, specifically? \*\* Myself? Nothing. But I do think that if for some reason, I really **needed** to …I don’t know…walk through fire or something, that my faith is strong enough to let me do it. **3. Are you able to perform magic that can be observed with the naked eye? (i.e. move objects)** Nope, not at all. At least not on your demand. I suppose that if for some reason I had to lift a car off someone it might be possible, but only through ‘divine help’, nothing that I personally do. \*\*4. What is your success rate of all magic performed? \*\* For myself? 100%. In other words, things have always worked out for me. If I lose my job, I find a better one shortly, move to a different state, manage to get a good paying job just when I need it. I’m not going to type everything again, go back and read my related storied a bit ago. \*\*5. What can you provide skeptics that shows this success rate is more than chance of the odds? \*\* Absolutly none. Because no matter what life experiences I relate, a skeptic will **always** attribute it to random chance. \*\*6. If I were there with you now, what could you show me that would make me a believer or at the very least persuade me to open my mind? \*\* Nothing I could show you. I could try and explain why I believe in these things, and tell you stories from my own life. 7,8,9,10. No to all of those. Because, like I’ve said, anything “magical” in nature I believe is ‘divine’ in origin. There you go Diane, I know it’s not what you wanted, but it’s my honest attempt to answer your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/316 "2001-05-07T12:58:11Z")
I’m guessing that I am not going to get my questions answered, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/317 "2001-05-07T13:14:47Z")
Monty– Let me show you what he said again. > [@](#): > > The judge may then instruct the jury that the **funny oath** they are about to hear should be considered legally valid. \*bolding mine Ok, now do you see that word ‘oath’ there? It’s the same word I used here: > [@](#): > > Every single person takes some sort of oath before they testify.\*\* Or someone else chants the oath, and they agree to it.\*\* Now, do you see what I’m talking about? I didn’t say that they swore to God, I said that they took an oath of some sort, or \*\*agreed to an oath that someone else reads \*\*. And as for this section: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Nope. No prize for you here either! The SET of solutions for the MATHEMATICAL EXPRESSION x+y=10 is infinite (another MATHEMATICAL TERM, btw); however, ALL MEMBERS of that INFINITE SET are PART OF THE MATHEMATICAL SYSTEM. Just because you fail to understand that math is a science doesn’t mean the rest of humanity is as brain dead. I can only assume that you’re being deliberatly obtuse on my meaning. Let me try saying my point **again**. Just because we know **one** method at arriving to a solution of a problem, does not mean that there aren’t **other** solutions as well. Go back and read my example about the race of blind people. If there is something (call it a ‘force’, ‘magic’, whatever) that is in existance, but is so outside of our current worldview, how can we possibly test or measure it? And since you can’t test or measure it, does that mean that it **doesn’t** exist? ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/318 "2001-05-07T13:26:55Z")
Ooops sorry, you posted your answers when I was typing my last post. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/319 "2001-05-07T13:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diane \* > \*\*I’m guessing that I am not going to get my questions answered, huh? \*\* Geez, give me a few , would you? I said Monday morning, I’ve only been at work for an hour or so,and I did have just a few job related things to take care of first. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/320 "2001-05-07T13:37:31Z")
Having read your answers, it appears that your claim to magic would better be defined as faith, much different than a few others (i.e. Hastur) who claim ability to cast spells that have measurable results. Again, I would like someone who has made that type of claim to answer my questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=17)