# Stupid fucks who believe in magic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202 "2001-04-24T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/101 "2001-04-25T07:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally by Czarcasm_ > On the other hand, if you are going to mis-use words like “magic” and say that it means the same thing as “prayer”, I don’t see how we can have an intelligent conversation. Magic/Magick = can include appeals to higher, supernatural powers. Prayer = appeal to higher, supernatural power. Sorry, **Czarcasm** , but the threads of Wicca and what present-day civilisation calls “Christianity” are more tightly wound together than you must think. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/102 "2001-04-25T07:41:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ice Wolf \* > \*\*Magic/Magick = can include appeals to higher, supernatural powers. > > Prayer = appeal to higher, supernatural power. > > Sorry, **Czarcasm** , but the threads of Wicca and what present-day civilisation calls “Christianity” are more tightly wound together than you must think. \*\* But the difference is that in prayer, one is pleading to an external deity to effect the desired change. In magic, the appeal is generally to a deified archtype within one’s self. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/103 "2001-04-25T10:16:14Z")
Sorry, **Eutychus55** , but **Cazarcasm** seemed to imply a vast difference between prayer and magic or magick. I don’t want to get into this, because I’d only end up talking about my own belief system, and this isn’t the place for that. When praying for inner strength to get over a crisis, and you then feel that inner strength – are you truly only crediting the higher power, or yourself? There are deep pagan roots to much of what established religion decrees today. Anyway – as a community, we shouldn’t be calling each other “stupid” or way worse just because we have different belief systems. Actually, I believe we all see paths to the same truth, whatever that may be. This is basically why I oppose the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/104 "2001-04-25T13:39:08Z")
I’m sorry, but if someone makes the claim “I can perform magic!”, and when asked to prove it, starts praying, I’m gonna call “Fraud!”. You _know_ what the public’s general peception of magic is, so playing games with the definition is dishonest to both yourself and others. You cannot pretend that most people are using “a form of prayer” as a common definition. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/105 "2001-04-25T13:43:31Z")
“She turned me into a newt…I got better” ---
**Author:** ![waxteeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@waxteeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waxteeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/106 "2001-04-25T13:50:41Z")
Please correct me if I’m wrong. Magik with a k designates that it’s a Wicca/Pagan religious activity vs. magic tricks like pull a rabbit from a hat. Magik is performed in rituals and worship. Magik is a viewpoint or state of mind. A common spell is changing your perspective of life from my life sucks to my life is great. When your life improves the changes come from the energy you put in your life “magik” Levitation and throwing fireballs are not examples of magik but are examples of magic… the David Copperfield type. Magik in a group is where several people put their collective energy into a ritual or spell. The feeling of focusing together is akin to a rock concert. Is this close? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/107 "2001-04-25T14:09:44Z")
Can we then determine that, when a group of people get together to perform “magick” and nothing happens, it’s the real thing? And if anything out of the ordinary happens, it’s that fake stage “magic”? I think I understand now. Thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/108 "2001-04-25T14:22:48Z")
Miss Cleo (shongo master, dont ya know) says you will stub your toe today… ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/109 "2001-04-25T14:42:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Can we then determine that, when a group of people get together to perform “magick” and nothing happens, it’s the real thing? And if anything out of the ordinary happens, it’s that fake stage “magic”? > > I think I understand now. Thank you. 🙂 \*\* Ok, and if that group gets together, performs some type of spell to bring good fortune upon one person, and good things happen to that person, can you prove that it didn’t work? _note, I have no idea about any Wiccan cermemonies here, just speaking my thoughts._ So if someone does a ritual that is supposed to bring happiness, or ensure fertility or something, and what they were trying for happens, how is that explained? Coincidence? Is that a scientific theory now? That if science can’t absolutly prove or disprove something, that it **must** be coincidental? Random chance? Fine then, prove to me exactlly how chance works. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/110 "2001-04-25T15:01:10Z")
What I want to know is this: if Majyk/Magik/Majik/Majgyck = Prayer then #1) Why use the term? The _vast_ majority of people who hear “Majyck” don’t think of it meaning “prayer” and it only serves to hamper communication. #2) If you don’t mean Majyck = Prayer and instead mean that you can really, literally create Bigby’s Crushing Fist spell or Mordankind’s Faithful Hound spell or a 3d6 Fireball or a 2d8 Cure Serious Wounds spell, then I believe you are subject to the same level of disbelief that Christians who believe that they can pray people healthy or “Psychic Surgeons” who pull out tumors. #3) Why do people say “It’ll come back to you 3 times 3 times 3.”? Why not just say: It’ll come back to you 27 times? (or if you mean 3^3^3, 729 times?) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/111 "2001-04-25T15:04:03Z")
Atrael, Again, the scientific method has a way of dealing with the issue you’ve brought up. If everybody gets together and prays, to the benefit of person A, for fertility and three weeks later that person gets pregnant what does it mean? Scientifically, nothing. How does science separate correlation from coincidence? Through repetition, double blind testing, and isolation of variables. Most people see B following A (pregnancy following a fertility prayer/spell, if such a thing exists) and assume that A caused B. Science says “hey, A _may_ have caused B and here is how we can test it, such that we can be sure that A really has that effect.” 90% of the ailments treated with homeopathy improve within three weeks. Pretty strong proof of efficacy, eh? Except that 90% of ailments not treated at all improve within three weeks. If all magick/prayer is, is a focusing of your mind on a specific issue (self improvement, healing) then it seems to me you’ve taken spirituality and defined it down to pop psychology. I don’t know as many Wiccans as you all but the ones I have met do not feel that their magick is only a form of prayer, or focus. They have all believed that somewhere are powerful magickians that CAN cast fireballs or affect the physical reality around them, they just don’t know how to do it themselves. But if you believe magick is a force only in the mental realm and not in the physical realm then I have no beef with it. I don’t consider the ability to control your own thoughts and emotions to be magical but you may. It is when someone starts saying that other people’s thoughts and physical reality can be altered by this force that I’m going to strenuously demand proof. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/112 "2001-04-25T15:08:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **#3) Why do people say “It’ll come back to you 3 times 3 times 3.”? Why not just say: It’ll come back to you 27 times? (or if you mean 3^3^3, 729 times?)** For the same reason Keats didn’t right “Poem About a Greek Pot.” ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/113 "2001-04-25T15:09:59Z")
Goddamnit, I meant “write”. I’m just discombobulated due to job troubles. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/114 "2001-04-25T15:10:10Z")
Disclaimer: I am not a Wiccan (IANAW?), and whether you decide my response is snide or joshing is completely up to you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > > #1) Why use the term? The _vast_ majority of people who hear “Majyck” don’t think of it meaning “prayer” and it only serves to hamper communication. But it also makes those involved feel more important. “Prayer” indicates beseeching a power much larger than you to do something. “Majick” indicates personal power and a sense of control. > [@](#): > > #3) Why do people say “It’ll come back to you 3 times 3 times 3.”? Why not just say: It’ll come back to you 27 times? (or if you mean 3^3^3, 729 times?) For the same reason Lincoln used “four score and seven” rather than “87”; it sounds better, and is more evocative of the imagery- in Lincoln’s case, Biblical imagery. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/115 "2001-04-25T15:16:22Z")
I had a long post almost finished when the gremlins got it. Here is a short version. Magick is not prayer, I am _comparing_ it to prayer. We perform spells/rituals to acheive the same kind of goals as a Christian in prayer does. Do Christians pray for fireballs? no. I don’t perform splells for fireballs either. I perform spells to focus my energy on improving my life, as a Christian would pray to Jesus for help with their life. I know that scientifically, it is BS, but emotionally it works for me, ok? I can’t prove anything. I am not asking you to believe anything. I am simply explaining my **personal religious beliefs** by using a common tool, comparison. An apple is similar to a pear, but it is an apple. _My_ magick is similar to prayer, but it is a magick spell. I call it what it is. I am comparing it to prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/116 "2001-04-25T15:20:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > > **#3) Why do people say “It’ll come back to you 3 times 3 times 3.”? Why not just say: It’ll come back to you 27 times? (or if you mean 3^3^3, 729 times?)** > > For the same reason Keats didn’t right “Poem About a Greek Pot.” \*\* I had to write a four page report on thta my senior year of high school. I only made a C and it pissed me off. I really went through a lot of effort and thought I found a lot of hidden meanins and all sorts of cool stuff. DAMN YOU ENGLISH TEACHER!!! Sorry, I just had to get this off my chest. Marc ---
**Author:** ![waxteeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@waxteeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waxteeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/117 "2001-04-25T15:20:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*What I want to know is this: > if Majyk/Magik/Majik/Majgyck = Prayer > then > \*\* I don’t know about most of these forms but can shed some light on “majgyck” Majgyck is taking a half empty glass and transforming it into a half full glass with incantations and spells. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/118 "2001-04-25T15:29:50Z")
So if you perform “Magick” and anything happens, Goddess Bless! If nothing happens, it isn’t destined to happen. Sounds pretty much like prayer to me. It also sounds like pure chance and wishful thinking, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/119 "2001-04-25T15:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > > No, the initial claim was the one he was responding to, that magic _does_ exist. > > And I ask again that you show me magic. > > Or at least specifically define it to the point that someone besides you understands what it is supposed to be. \*\* > > The minute you can get yourself to Oregon, I will be most happy to show you magick. Hey, **Hastur**? I’ve got no beef with your beliefs. If you can perform magick, that’s great. But I am shocked and appalled at the hypocrisy you’ve shown by this statement. When Czarcasm indicated he actually lived in Portland, you wimped out big-time, rather than back up the statement you made. Yeah, I know, it makes a huge difference in your life what I think. That action on your part, however, was JDT-like in its ridiculousness. Geez, man. Don’t say things you can’t back up. It ruins your whole argument. ---
**Author:** ![Wartime\_Consigliori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9d8465/32.png) [@Wartime\_Consigliori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wartime_Consigliori)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/120 "2001-04-25T15:36:51Z")
Ya know, there’s nothing like a good pit thread to bring our little community together. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=7)