# Stupid fucks who believe in magic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202 "2001-04-24T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/121 "2001-04-25T15:41:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LunaSea \* > \*\* I perform spells to focus my energy on improving my life, as a Christian would pray to Jesus for help with their life. I know that scientifically, it is BS, but emotionally it works for me, ok? I can’t prove anything. \*\* You don’t have to prove anything. Because, OK, here’s the thing. What you are describing here _does in fact often work_. What you are doing, though, is thinking about stuff, or clearing your head, or whatever. Some people do it formally and call it meditation, others do it less formally and call it something else or nothing at all, and _waaaay_ too many people never do it at all. And if throwing up a few candles and burning incense or whatever helps you focus (or unfocus or whatever your goal is), all the more power to you (especially since I have a friend who owns a candle shop! She thanks you for the business. ;)). But when you dress it up and call it something (magic) that means something entirely different to essentially all other native English speakers, or if you claim that there is this mysterious Goddess or earth force or whatever that causes whatever good results ensue from you getting your head straight, you confuse people and risk getting called wacky. _It is not magic!_ ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/122 "2001-04-25T15:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \*So if you perform “Magick” and anything happens, Goddess Bless! > If nothing happens, it isn’t destined to happen. > Sounds pretty much like prayer to me. > > It also sounds like pure chance and wishful thinking, btw. I do not believe that the Goddess does anything for me. I don’t even know that I can believe in any diety. I find that on the times I have performed a magick spell it has led to a betterment of myself. I only affect myself. I do rituals to improve my emotional wellbeing. It isn’t a prayer because I am not beseeching the Goddess to intervene on my behalf. I am helping myself. Yes, it is wishful thinking. If I believe good things will happen, good things tend to happen. I use a spell to direct my own positive energy. I have found that if people have self confidence, and expect a good outcome they will subconciously set themselves for success, and the opposite holds true. I have seen a study (it was in Newsweek not too long ago) that indicated that the placebo effect works even when the patient knows he is getting a sugar pill. Is it so hard to then to get the same effect with my rituals? Anyway, that’s religion for you. It doesn’t make any fucking sense. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/123 "2001-04-25T15:59:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LunaSea \* > \*\*I had a long post almost finished when the gremlins got it. Here is a short version. > > Magick is not prayer, I am _comparing_ it to prayer. We perform spells/rituals to acheive the same kind of goals as a Christian in prayer does. Do Christians pray for fireballs? no. I don’t perform splells for fireballs either. I perform spells to focus my energy on improving my life, as a Christian would pray to Jesus for help with their life. I know that scientifically, it is BS, but emotionally it works for me, ok? I can’t prove anything. I am not asking you to believe anything. I am simply explaining my **personal religious beliefs** by using a common tool, comparison. An apple is similar to a pear, but it is an apple. _My_ magick is similar to prayer, but it is a magick spell. I call it what it is. I am comparing it to prayer. \*\* Hey, let’s lay off **LunaSea** here. This is a very reasonable statement of belief (and is as supportable as anything a Christian says). We shouldn’t get bogged down in semantics. There’s no statement of ‘fireballs’ or anything. Let it go and beat on the others. It’ll be more profitable. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/124 "2001-04-25T16:04:08Z")
Ok people, I am not the one who decided to call it magick. I am telling you why it is called magick. IT LOOKS LIKE A MAGIC SPELL. Wiccans use the term magick because it fits. I am so sorry you don’t like it, but I don’t think they really care whether you approve or not. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/125 "2001-04-25T16:40:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LunaSea \* > \*\*I had a long post almost finished when the gremlins got it. Here is a short version. > > Magick is not prayer, I am _comparing_ it to prayer. We perform spells/rituals to acheive the same kind of goals as a Christian in prayer does. Do Christians pray for fireballs? no. I don’t perform splells for fireballs either. I perform spells to focus my energy on improving my life, as a Christian would pray to Jesus for help with their life. I know that scientifically, it is BS, but emotionally it works for me, ok? I can’t prove anything. I am not asking you to believe anything. I am simply explaining my **personal religious beliefs** by using a common tool, comparison. An apple is similar to a pear, but it is an apple. _My_ magick is similar to prayer, but it is a magick spell. I call it what it is. I am comparing it to prayer. \*\* Luna…all kidding aside, I don’t get it: how is what you’re doing _different_ from prayer? Christians (generally) don’t pray for Fireballs, they (tend) to pray for, as you said, help with their life. Do you mean to use the term “Spell” to describe the same thing that, say a Catholic Mass, with the taking of the eucharist(sp), and the singing, and etc. does? IE A spell is a big, long, involved prayer with physical actions? I am NOT being snide here, I’m trying to understand how you’re using the word, 'cause it doesn’t match with my understanding. Explaining the difference would probably clear things up a lot for me. Thanks! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/126 "2001-04-25T16:45:55Z")
Aargh. And if I had previewed _before_ posting, I would see that you’d answered most of my questions already. Oops. Sorry! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/127 "2001-04-25T16:51:28Z")
My nephew has an imaginary friendk. My cold departed rapidly, a fact I put down to copious amounts of placebok. Where is DavidBk? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/128 "2001-04-25T17:07:30Z")
There’s all kinds of ignorance. That’s why some people make really good engineers or physicists, but really lousy salesmen or CEOs. Sometimes, ignorance is born of circumstance. A person simply doesn’t have the environment or resources necessary to get the facts. I think most of us will agree that these people are excused, at least until we find out whether, given the information they couldn’t previously obtain, they intend to remain ignorant. Sometimes, ignorance is born of laziness or apathy. Most of us, except for the most hopeless bleeding hearts, won’t cut these people any slack. If they deliberately _choose_ to be ignorant, then fuck them. Ignorance can be born from lots of conditions: narrow-mindedness, timidity, negligence, brain-washing, illness, stubborness, and on and on… But the scariest ignorance of all, to me, is the ignorance that’s born of arrogance. It _causes_ so many of the other conditions. The person who is ignorant due to arrogance, I call a bigot. The arrogant bigot becomes narrow-minded, lazy, and negligent. He isn’t necessarily a liar. Often, there is at least a grain of truth in what he preaches. Sometimes, everything he says is true. But what he does, because of his arrogance, is miss the whole point of any truths he does espouse. Now there are ignorant bigots in every discipline. No one field holds exclusive claim to the arrogant bastards. They are found in religion, in politics, in business, in the arts, and yes, in science, too. Naivity is ignorance’s cousin. And the naivity of some scientists is so legendary that it has become a popular caricature: the white-coated nerd with Coke bottle bottom glasses who busily frets over the equation on his note pad while his shoes are on fire. Too many scientists think that the kind of stuff they prove is the only kind of stuff that matters. It isn’t. Too many scientists think that the scientific method is the only legitimate way to verify truth. It isn’t. Too many scientists think science is the opposite of ignorance. It isn’t. It’s all well and good that science discovered how to split the atom. Unfortunately, it did not discover a way to stop mad politicians from making nuclear bombs. It’s good that science has figured out what foods make us healthy, and what vitamin deficiencies make us sick. But it hasn’t showed us how to love each other enough to end starvation. It’s fine that science has mapped out the human genome. But I can guarantee you that you cannot yet even _imagine_ the evil purposes toward which that knowledge will be used eventually. The track record is way too clear. The present generation of scientific bigots is not exceptional. For thousands of years, men have declared their pitiful knowledge at the time to be the end of the road. “So and so can’t happen because of so-and-so.” Or “so-and-so is true because of so-and-so.” And there are scientists, even in this day and age, who declare that believers in God or magick or anything that hasn’t been through the scientific method’s sieve is somehow foolhardy. The fact is that they themselves, those scientists who lash out at people of faith, are among the greatest fools of all. In their ignorance, they have used their own misinterpretation of Ockham’s Razor to crucify and ridicule people like the good Pagans here, only to have the futility of their own efforts exposed by Godel. But has Godel extinguished their arrogance? Hardly. What sort of ignorant bastard doesn’t know that a factoid is a worthless piece of information, contextually naked, and could potentially be his own perdition? What sort of moron cannot comprehend that his puny knowledge is of a local environment at a local time in a universe that is nearly boundless? What sort of imbecile is so ignorant of human relations that he cannot get along with his neighbor who doesn’t think the damn atoms are all that important? The arrogant — and ignorant — scientist. That’s who. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/129 "2001-04-25T17:24:46Z")
Fenris, the problem is that every Coven/Solitary has their own rituals. I will decribe a sample ritual with a simple spell. I am doing this because you asked so nicely. 1. Usually outside, I will “Cast the Circle” I usually draw it with a wood staff or mark it with salt, depending where I am. Many Wicca would do this with an Athame (ritual knife) or wand. This creates a sacred space, like a temporary church or synagogue. I set up the altar with a piece of cloth, candles and whatever else I will be using. 2. I will invoke the Goddess & elements by aksing for their help/ blessing and lighting candles to them… A coven usually does this with the Priestess and /or Preist and four people to represent the directions/elements. 3. I raise my ‘power’ through meditation or chanting. A coven would chant as a group. I concentrate on whatever my goal is, for instance, being a better mother to my children. 4. After I raise my “power” I would burn pieces of paper with negative words on them, such as impatience, visiualizing that negative trait being burned from my psyche with my energy. I will now visualize the positive traits while making an amulet. I will wear or carry this charm to remind myself of the changes I am trying to effect. For this I would write positive traits on strips on paper, and put them in a small pouch along with herbs that promote patience etc. I will sew it shut and carry it with me. 5. I thank the Goddess for watching over me, dimiss the elements & uncast the circle. That is why it is called magick. If I were stumbled across on a beach onder the full moon performing a rite, the average person wouldn’t think, “wow , she’s praying.” They would think I’m a witch. I think of praying as someone on their knees asking God for a favor, or forgiveness. I am helping myself. When I ask the Goddess for help, I see it as appealing to a higher part of my own conciousness. I use magick to access this part of myself. You can call it whatever you want. Wiccans call what I do magick. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/130 "2001-04-25T17:28:28Z")
I invite you to join [the current Gödel thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=68758), **Libertarian**. I don’t whether my pretty sniffy comments sired your remarks, but I should perhaps flatten their tone (just two-tenths of a tad). I have no problem with faith (for example shown in **Falcon** ’s post) and I am more than happy to say that there is much – in meaning as well as fact – that is a mystery, but I will be damned if I have to accept such dog-in-a-manger concepts as harmonising magick or the sellers of bits of the true cross as belonging to the realm of faith rather than con artistry. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/131 "2001-04-25T17:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > magic, **magick** (IMAGINARY POWER) noun, adjective > (of) the use of special powers to make things happen which would usually be impossible From the Cambridge dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/132 "2001-04-25T17:41:51Z")
Wow, great thread, Picmr! I don’t think I could contribute anything not already done. And no, you didn’t set me off. I have enough sense to discern the difference between a gentle, good-natured poke and an ignorant, mean-spiritted jab. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/133 "2001-04-25T17:42:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > > Sometimes, ignorance is born of laziness or apathy. Most of us, except for the most hopeless bleeding hearts, won’t cut these people any slack. If they deliberately _choose_ to be ignorant, then fuck them. \*\* Gee, that pretty much sums up our attitudes towards those who believe in magic(k). If someone wants to believe something that is completely irrational don’t call those of us who disagree ignorant. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Ignorance can be born from lots of conditions: narrow-mindedness, timidity, negligence, brain-washing, illness, stubborness, and on and on… But the scariest ignorance of all, to me, is the ignorance that’s born of arrogance. \*\* Please let us know what’s ignorant about not believing in magic? > [@](#): > > \*\* > It’s all well and good that science discovered how to split the atom. Unfortunately, it did not discover a way to stop mad politicians from making nuclear bombs. It’s good that science has figured out what foods make us healthy, and what vitamin deficiencies make us sick. But it hasn’t showed us how to love each other enough to end starvation. \*\* What in the hell are you babbling about? Science doesn’t make any discoveries because it ain’t a living being. Instead individuals, sometimes we call them scientist, use the scientific method to prove theories that they or others might have. Theory: I think maggots spontaneously spring to life from rotting meat Experiment: I’ll set up a piece of meat in the open and one in a jar covered by cheesecloth and see what happens. Results: Unprotected meat was swarmed by flies and later maggots appeared all over it. Protected meat did not have any maggot infestation at all. New Theory: Maggots do not spontaneously generate from dead matter but instead are transported there by flies. See how it works? The scientific method relies on things that we can observe and experiment with. It is all about fighting ignorance with facts. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The present generation of scientific bigots is not exceptional. For thousands of years, men have declared their pitiful knowledge at the time to be the end of the road. \*\* And I haven’t seen anyone here say that we knew everything there was to know about everything. In fact one of the believers in magic offered to demonstrate it for anyone in the Oregon area. Though the offer was taken by a nonbeliever it turns out the demonstration will not happen. Seems to me that people of reason are willing to see any evidence you might have. That does’t sound like ignorant bigoted behavior to me. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And there are scientists, even in this day and age, who declare that believers in God or magick or anything that hasn’t been through the scientific method’s sieve is somehow foolhardy. \*\* Belief in things without some sort of evidence is foolhardy. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The fact is that they themselves, those scientists who lash out at people of faith, are among the greatest fools of all. In their ignorance, they have used their own misinterpretation of Ockham’s Razor to crucify and ridicule people like the good Pagans here, only to have the futility of their own efforts exposed by Godel. But has Godel extinguished their arrogance? Hardly. \*\* I gotta ask again. What the hell are you babbling about? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/134 "2001-04-25T17:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **It’s all well and good that science discovered how to split the atom. Unfortunately, it did not discover a way to stop mad politicians from making nuclear bombs. It’s good that science has figured out what foods make us healthy, and what vitamin deficiencies make us sick. But it hasn’t showed us how to love each other enough to end starvation. It’s fine that science has mapped out the human genome. But I can guarantee you that you cannot yet even _imagine_ the evil purposes toward which that knowledge will be used eventually. The track record is way too clear.** So what? Neither did plumbers. It’s **NOT** a scientist’s job to be moral arbiter and conscience. Would you stop scientific progress, because someone can do evil with the results? Have fun huddling naked in a cave, cold and scared of the dark. Mapping the human genome may provide a cure for cancer, it may also create an army of mindless zombie slaves. I’ll take the risk. From your post, it seems as though you’re implying that if a discovery can be used for evil ends, it’s a bad discovery. I disagree. Science is neutral. \*\* > [@](#): > > The present generation of scientific bigots is not exceptional. For thousands of years, men have declared their pitiful knowledge at the time to be the end of the road. “So and so can’t happen because of so-and-so.” Or “so-and-so is true because of so-and-so.” And there are scientists, even in this day and age, who declare that believers in God or magick or anything that hasn’t been through the scientific method’s sieve is somehow foolhardy.\*\* And for years when proven wrong, scientists modify their theories, shrug and move forward. Prove that you can cast fireballs and I’ll be happy to rearrange my worldview. But I require proof. Claim that God can let you resist poison, I’ll wanna watch you drink poison that I provide. Do it and you’ll have a convert. I don’t see anyone mocking Pagans, Christians or Jews. I do see them mocking people making extrodinary claims who won’t provide even ordinary proof \*\* > [@](#): > > What sort of ignorant bastard doesn’t know that a factoid is a worthless piece of information, contextually naked, and could potentially be his own perdition? What sort of moron cannot comprehend that his puny knowledge is of a local environment at a local time in a universe that is nearly boundless? What sort of imbecile is so ignorant of human relations that he cannot get along with his neighbor who doesn’t think the damn atoms are all that important? > > The arrogant — and ignorant — scientist. That’s who. \*\* The same person who’s read of people dying because they belive in magic healing crystals rather than chemotherapy. The same person who’s aware of children dying becasue their parents believed in the healing power of prayer IN PLACE of insulin shots The same person who’s watching the wonders and majesty of the whole of creation: the magnificent dance of the heavens to the beauty of molecules, being replaced by the crude superstition of glorified cavemen who want the bone-headed imbicility of astrology and the idiocy of “magic healing crystals” Science doesn’t know all there is to know, but it’s the best method we have of trying to figure it out. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/135 "2001-04-25T17:50:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Too many scientists think that the scientific method is the only legitimate way to verify truth. It isn’t. \*\* OK Lib, I’ll bite. What’s another way? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/136 "2001-04-25T17:56:29Z")
Now, there you go with the strawmen. Notice that I didn’t attack science or scientists. I attacked the belief that science is all that matters, and I attacked scientists who are arrogant and therefore ignorant. Don’t lump yourselves among them by failing to see your own logical fallacies. If science isn’t to be held to common sense ethics, then why should politics, business, or religion be? If you were scientists worth your weight in salt, you would stand behind me in lumping unscrupulous science right in there with the psycho-babble charlatans. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/137 "2001-04-25T17:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > OK Lib, I’ll bite. What’s another way [to veirfy truth]? Good lord. Among the endless number is one called “personal experience.” Prove, for example, that a lake is beautiful. Don’t they teach anything about epistemology in your science courses? ---
**Author:** ![ReservoirDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@ReservoirDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReservoirDog)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/138 "2001-04-25T18:03:38Z")
Dear Jesus, Thank you for this beautiful day, O most Holy of Lords! In your infinite goodness and wisdom, please watch over your flock as we live and work to do your bidding. Dear Lord, we pray for those who have lost their way, dear God please help those who know not what they do. Sweet heavenly Father, we ask for your guidance in this, our time of need. Also, we could really use some fireballs. This we ask in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/139 "2001-04-25T18:24:26Z")
1. **Jab1** should not have called the Pagans “stupid fucks.” Insulting someone’s deepest beliefs isn’t the most politic way to get them to listen to you. 2. Casting spells and praying to the Goddess is as meaningful (or as silly) as praying in a cathedral. If performing rituals makes you a nicer person and helps you deal with the world in a more functional way, more power to you. 3)However, asserting that you can perform miracles demands evidence to back it up. Pagans who say they can change the external world through supernatural means must expect that their claims will be viewed as skeptically as Benny Hinn saying he can heal people of their ailments through the laying on of hands. Flouncing off in a huff when your bluff gets called makes you look petulant. 1. **Libertarian** , before you disparage science, it would be helpful if you knew what science was. Science is not a body of facts; it is a way of judging claims through logic and the evaluation of evidence. Expecting science to teach you how to love is as unrealistic is expecting the Bible to teach you calculus. Science and religion work different sides of the street; science shows you how they physical universe works, while religion teaches you how to find purpose and meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2001, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202/140 "2001-04-25T18:26:53Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > If you were scientists worth your weight in salt, you would stand behind me in lumping unscrupulous science right in there with the psycho-babble charlatans. \*\* Define “unscrulous science”. Science’s results simply _are_. They’re neither good or evil. PEOPLE can put science to good or evil ends but “science” itself is neutral. F = ma . The end. That can be used to build an airplane that carries sick patients to hospitals, or a bomber that takes out a small village. Either way, F still equals ma and it doesn’t make F=ma good or evil. Fenris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-fucks-who-believe-in-magic/63202.md?page=8)