# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1981 "2013-04-20T21:55:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Laser training systems offer a very affordable of quickdraw training that can be used at home and also trains your marksmanship. All without firing any live rounds or even loading any rounds into your gun. Sure it costs as much as a cheap gun but it probably saves you many times its cost in ammunition (especially these days). Nice, in theory. However, I’m sure you’ll agree that there is probably a fixed percentage of idiots in the country. More guns in the hands of more people therefore = more guns in the hands of idiots. More guns = more idiots with guns. Idiots like the guy in the cite above, who is very unlikely to avail himself of sensible marksmanship training devices. Because he’s an idiot. Idiots don’t know that they are, in fact idiots (see Dunning-Kruger Effect), so they won’t take sensible precautions. Also, more guns in the hands of more people = more accidents that even normally safe people would not have. Because they are accidents, and it just takes a TINY MOMENT of inattention to have a fatal accident with a gun. This is not the case with other objects, because the other objects are not specifically DESIGNED to be fatal to living things. So to summarize… More guns = more guns in the hands of idiots More guns = more accidents by non-idiots who make one tiny error ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1982 "2013-04-20T21:55:39Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] Laser training systems offer a very affordable of quickdraw training that can be used at home and also trains your marksmanship. All without firing any live rounds or even loading any rounds into your gun. Sure it costs as much as a cheap gun but it probably saves you many times its cost in ammunition (especially these days). [/QUOTE] Is that what you use when you’re fantasizing about your showdown with the bad guy? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1983 "2013-04-20T22:57:49Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is that what you use when you’re fantasizing about your showdown with the bad guy? Is it still the official Obamabot position that we need to continue giving unlimited powers to the FBI and the CIA because terrorists are hiding in our cereal, but that anyone who owns a gun for protection is being a paranoid idiot because crime will never happen to them (except getting shot with a gun, which is happening all the time despite those doubtless NRA-bribed ‘numbers’ showing it on the decrease year after year)? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1984 "2013-04-20T23:03:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …Did you miss the cite to the study done on thsi subject earlier in this thread. Even Hemenway has conceded that CCW do not seem to make matters worse (of course he doesn’t think that there is a significant improvement in gun violence either)… Are we back to the dreary issue of whether or not “measurable” means the same thing as “significant”? Is that why you chose the word “pronounced”? And that wording “Hemenway has conceded”? Doesn’t that imply a partisan and biased viewpoint on his part, that he must “concede” rather than simply “conclude”? Have you established his biased viewpoint already, that we may take it as Gospel, or is this only an innuendo on your part? Play fair, show your work, define your terms, its not complicated. > [@](#): > > …Your obstinate refusal to consider the facts objectively (on CCW, the LA riots, and the right to defend your livelihood) is shared by many on your side of the debate and you guys are in the same category as global warming denialists on this one, you are reaching for the less likely answer (perhaps not as certainly less liekly but still less likely) because you don’t like where the facts lead you… Continuing to disagree with you does not constitute “obstinate refusal”. And the one thing we are most in need of, objective facts, is in very short supply. One powerful partisan of the argument has done everything in its considerable power to keep it that way. That is not your fault, and I certainly don’t hold you accountable. But it is my prejudice that those who wish to impede research are not to be trusted as agents of truth. Call it a hunch, if you like. Even one who is, like I am, unsophisticated when it comes to statistical analysis knows that truly definitive studies are somewhat rare. The more variables go into the mix, the less reliable the result, unless an effective effort is made to resolve them all. A human population is an organic machine to produce variables. About the only things Utah and New York have in common is English as the dominant language (if we exclude Long Island). Either you don’t know you are offering a shaky foundation for your adamant demand for agreement or it doesn’t matter much to you. You demand respect for results and in the next breath, undermine their significance. At one and the same time, you say the results are not particularly compelling, yet seem to expect me to reel away in dismay. And would it have been all that difficult to define your terms so that we might know what the range is between “measurable” and “pronounced”? By any chance, does that range correspond closely to the range friend **Hentor the Contrarian** might say lies between “measurable” and “significant”? Seems to me you might have accomplished that rather easily, saving you the energy of bristling and ruffling your feathers. I asked for definition, you gave me a homework assignment. If I want to know what you mean to say, who better to ask than you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1985 "2013-04-20T23:05:36Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Is it still the official Obamabot position that we need to continue giving unlimited powers to the FBI and the CIA because terrorists are hiding in our cereal, but that anyone who owns a gun for protection is being a paranoid idiot because crime will never happen to them (except getting shot with a gun, which is happening all the time despite those doubtless NRA-bribed ‘numbers’ showing it on the decrease year after year)? **DA** , I apologize, I have suddenly come to appreciate how intelligent and worthwhile your arguments are. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1986 "2013-04-20T23:13:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Is it still the official Obamabot position that we need to continue giving unlimited powers to the FBI and the CIA because terrorists are hiding in our cereal, but that anyone who owns a gun for protection is being a paranoid idiot because crime will never happen to them (except getting shot with a gun, which is happening all the time despite those doubtless NRA-bribed ‘numbers’ showing it on the decrease year after year)? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1987 "2013-04-20T23:33:48Z")
Oh, nice work, **Hentor**! The memo was clearly marked “Hive Mind Only”! Whatsamatta you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1988 "2013-04-21T07:42:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > More guns = more idiots with guns. Idiots like the guy in the cite above, who is very unlikely to avail himself of sensible marksmanship training devices. Because he’s an idiot. Idiots don’t know that they are, in fact idiots (see Dunning-Kruger Effect), so they won’t take sensible precautions. Short of repealing the 2nd amendment, what do you propose to do about it? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is that what you use when you’re fantasizing about your showdown with the bad guy? I don’t do quickdraw training (I just don’t think its important for someone in my situation, I’d be better off spending my time learning CPR) but I do laser training now just because its something I can do at home. > [@elucidator](#): > > And that wording “Hemenway has conceded”? Doesn’t that imply a partisan and biased viewpoint on his part, that he must “concede” rather than simply “conclude”? Have you established his biased viewpoint already, that we may take it as Gospel, or is this only an innuendo on your part? Play fair, show your work, define your terms, its not complicated. > **[David Hemenway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hemenway)** > > David Hemenway (born 1945) is a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health and Director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. He has a B.A. (1966) and Ph.D. (1974) from Harvard University, as well as an MA (1967) from University of Michigan, all in economics. He was James Marsh Visiting Professor-at-Large at the University of Vermont from 2005 to 2012 and 2020-2021 Elizabeth S. and Richard M. Cashin Fellow at the Harvard Radcliffe Institute. In 2012, he rece Hemen... > [@David Hemenway](#): > > Made controversial statement in April 2013, "“Instead of it being the mark of a real man that you can shoot somebody at 50 feet and kill them with a gun, the mark of a real man is that you would never do anything like that. . . . The gun is a great equalizer because it makes wimps as dangerous as people who really have skill and bravery and so I’d like to have this notion that anyone using a gun is a wuss. They aren’t anybody to be looked up to. They’re somebody to look down at because they couldn’t defend themselves or couldn’t protect others without using a gun. Hemenway is an anti-gun vilifier of gun owners. And even he has conceded that CCW is not harmful. > [@](#): > > And the one thing we are most in need of, objective facts, is in very short supply. No its not, you just keep insisting it is but its not. > [@](#): > > But it is my prejudice that those who wish to impede research are not to be trusted as agents of truth. Call it a hunch, if you like. I have the same prejudice and when I defend the NRA on this have a point point it is only because I think that they when they claim that health professionals are biased. We have had this debate and you just haven’t been able to address the comments made by the folks who did the study. > [@](#): > > About the only things Utah and New York have in common is English as the dominant language Its not just Utah and NYC. > [@](#): > > At one and the same time, you say the results are not particularly compelling, yet seem to expect me to reel away in dismay. I’m not saying you need to go out and get a CCW today but I am saying that there is probably little harm in allowing CCW. > [@elucidator](#): > > **DA** , I apologize, I have suddenly come to appreciate how intelligent and worthwhile your arguments are. I voted for Obama twice. I donate money to his campaign. I donated money to his superpac. Maybe this is a partisan issue in the general sense but its not partisan for me. With that said WTF is Obama is not quite as liberal as most people think. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1989 "2013-04-21T13:11:48Z")
Most people realized that some time ago, including the ones desperately trying to paint him as the second coming of Che Guevara to prevent his election and reelection. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1990 "2013-04-21T14:25:42Z")
Hemenway is suddenly some kind of guru. It is as if his pronouncements mean more than the science. Speaking of which, I’m having a hard time finding his statements suggesting CCW is not problematic. DA, can you cite this assertion you keep making? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1991 "2013-04-21T16:42:31Z")
I think he is talking about those results which are “measurable” but for some reason fall short of being “pronounced”. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1992 "2013-04-21T20:04:15Z")
\*\*Guns and Gastronomy edition: \*\* For those not willing to walk onto someone else’s property to shoot an 800 pound pig you don’t own with the intention of gutting and dressing it in plain view of a highway (how else would you pick up an 800 pound carcass?) [Father And Son Don’t Get Their Chicken Wings, Return To Restaurant With AK-47](http://www.inquisitr.com/625329/father-and-son-dont-get-their-chicken-wings-return-to-restaurant-with-ak-47/#9coDVUjpFhBKJTHG.16) and [Frustrated by delay, Georgia cop allegedly pulled gun in McDonald’s drive-thru line](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/angry-pulls-gun-mickey-line-officials-article-1.1320782) My apologies if these have already been added to your collection of responsible gun owner stories. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1993 "2013-04-21T20:10:21Z")
If the gun-confiscation brigade is actually on board with taking them away from cops too, maybe we have something to talk about. Otherwise I don’t see how your plans would stop that from happening, especially since everything you’ve proposed thus far gives more power and trust to cops and not less. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1994 "2013-04-21T20:16:47Z")
**On the Knives are Just as Dangerous Front:** [Clerk laughed at [knife wielding] bandit and just said ‘no’’](http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/strange/floriduh-blog/sfl-flduh-clerk-laughed-at-bandit-20130418,0,3554677.story) – and it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1995 "2013-04-21T20:18:56Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > If the gun-confiscation brigade is actually on board with taking them away from cops too, maybe we have something to talk about. Well, the GA hamburgler isn’t a cop any more. And don’t forget that dude from CA who was going to go all Rambo and stuff… he’s now a crispy critter, so no longer a cop either. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1996 "2013-04-21T20:26:58Z")
And all accomplished with a minimum of fuss and bother, aside from the improvisational ventilation of an SUV and a few corpses. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1997 "2013-04-22T02:31:48Z")
Gotta love them teens: [Police: Fla. teen accidentally shoots off his penis and testicle](http://www.11alive.com/news/article/256361/186/Police-Fla-teen-accidentally-shoots-off-his-penis-and-testicle) > [@](#): > > Doctors say the bullet went through his penis, his left testicle and then lodged itself in his thigh. It must suck to get shot in the thigh. At least he still has one testicle, so he’s not entirely out of the gene pool. But I bet his jeans are shot now. –and– A teen shoots his parents over chores. > [@](#): > > […]the teenager accused of opening fire on his parents Friday evening was angry that they insisted he do his chores instead of looking up a Bible verse for a female friend who had told him she wanted to be “saved." > > […] his pent-up rage grew overnight Thursday and continued to build all day Friday while he was at school. > > So he went to his parents’ night stand where he knew they kept a 9mm pistol, took the gun […] Read more here: [http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2013/04/15/2465255/police-teen-shot-parents-because.html#storylink=cpy](http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2013/04/15/2465255/police-teen-shot-parents-because.html#storylink=cpy) Well, Bless his heart! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1998 "2013-04-22T03:29:19Z")
As much as I like being up to date on all the latest news…that first one, I could have done without. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1999 "2013-04-22T08:01:32Z")
From [this questionable IMHO poll:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=688741) > [@pro vs anti gun Dopers tally](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vs-anti-gun-dopers-tally/656273/30): > > I’m strongly pro gun for the same reason I’m strongly pro anything that is for sale. If I want it and I can afford it, I should be able to own it without jumping through a multitude of loops. If I own a gun it ain’t no one’s business but mine. I’m strongly anti gun registration. > [@pro vs anti gun Dopers tally](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vs-anti-gun-dopers-tally/656273/48): > > I have some crack cocaine and some U235 I’ve had sitting in my trunk for weeks; sounds like you’re an interested buyer? > [@pro vs anti gun Dopers tally](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vs-anti-gun-dopers-tally/656273/53): > > I can’t afford either one and wouldn’t buy if I could-----I get to choose what I would spend money on. > > Is it brilliant of you to admit you have illegal substance in your possession? Am I being wooshed? Or is he honestly that dense? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2000 "2013-04-22T18:04:59Z")
I guess Kable has given up on edjamakating us. The Violence Policy Center reported that in 2010, there were 19,393 gun suicides, 8,275 criminal gun homicides, 606 unintentional gun deaths, and a whopping 230 justifiable homicides… [http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf](http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf) Kable claims that defensive gun use (he shortens this to the acronym ‘DGU’) to prevent crime events number in the millions every year, a figure I believe he obtained form the NRA. From the link above: "According to the 2004 book Private Guns, Public Health by Dr. David Hemenway, Professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health and director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, "This estimate is not plausible and has been nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.” " (Page 8, in the linked PDF) He believes the “DGU” number is more likely closer to 5,000 a year, or 0.8 % of crimes, if I understand correctly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=101)