# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 134
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2661 "2013-08-07T04:55:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are you referring to people killed by firearms? > > That doesn’t bother me as long as when the guys Mrs. Plant was to testify against come through the door, at 5’ tall I have something to shoot them with. God made men colonel Colt made them equal. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2662 "2013-08-07T11:22:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We had this debate in great debates and I was not the only one who thought you guys fucked yourselves raw with the AWB. Maybe someday you’ll actually favor us with some actual reporting or serious commentary to support your remarkable claim about that. Hell, even some crackpot blog would be more than you’ve offered other than your OCD-like “Look what you made us do!” crap. > [@](#): > > 350, 000 defensive gun uses per year Extremely, extremely questionable, and that’s being generous. But you’ve already shown yourself eager to swallow any gun glurge that comes your way and repeat it as “fact”, haven’t you? Time to grow the fuck up, kid. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2663 "2013-08-07T15:05:53Z")
> [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > If you have a problem with the cites then explain your objection if your problem is that some of my cites are gun nuts then I suspect that there are a few of your cites from gun grabbers. > > BTW, some of my cites include the violence policy center and the department of justice. I already did this in post [2611](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16525917&postcount=2611). I went through in _painstaking_ detail, noting my objections to your cites. Since you often just link generically to something without actually citing and quoting the relevant bit, this took some time. I went so far as to reviewing data tables, attempting to retrospectively determine what base data the Texas guy was using (since he didn’t provide it) by reverse calculation from his population averaged data. Another cite, buried in the middle of a long ass article – which you again failed to bother to specifically cite – was from a lawyer. In order to ensure that he had no demonstrable expertise on the topic of CCW safety, I searched for and reviewed his CV. I even linked to that for you. The fact that you could now, at this stage, ask me to specifically document my objections to your cites demonstrates why any meaningful response to you is just a waste of time. You are uninterested or incapable of comprehending the issues. I suspect the latter, since you continue to do things like cite the fact that some lawyer or Bill Bennett said so, or you say things like “some of my cites include the violence policy center and the department of justice.” Cognitively, you are still at a very primary stage – appeals to authority are all you can muster, rather than thinking through for yourself the merits of an argument or a bit of evidence. For instance, one problem with an appeal to authority on your part like “I cited the Violence Policy Center” is that you then have to cope with inconvenient facts. For instance, the VPC’s position on DGU is reflected in this [press release](http://www.vpc.org/press/1304self.htm) from April, 2013, which says in part: > [@](#): > > **Firearm Justifiable Homicides by Private Citizens Occur Rarely** > > **In 2010, across the nation there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the FBI.** That same year, there were 8,275 criminal gun homicides. […] > > **Firearms are Rarely Used in Self-Defense by Victims of Attempted or Completed Violent Crimes** > > **For victims of both attempted and completed violent crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.8 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm.** For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 29,618,300 victims of attempted or completed violent crimes. **During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm.** […] > > **Firearms are Rarely Used in Self-Defense by Victims of Attempted or Completed Property Crimes** > > **For victims of both attempted and completed property crimes, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011 in only 0.1 percent of these instances did the intended victim in resistance to a criminal engage in a self-protective behavior that involved a firearm.** For the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that there were 84,495,500 victims of attempted or completed property crimes. **During this same five-year period, only 103,000 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm.** Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used, whether it was fired or not, or whether the use of a gun would even be a legal response to the property crime. And that number as well may also include off-duty law enforcement officers. **In comparison, new data from the Department of Justice shows that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.** > > **Total Number of Actual Self-Defense Firearm Uses are Only a Small Fraction of Pro-Gun Claims** > > **According to the NCVS, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.** In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self-defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft-repeated claim that firearms are used in self-defense 2.5 million times a year). (Bolding in the original.) Since you lack the capacity to think through the merits of your arguments and your cites, you are now in the position of having to mindlessly reject this evidence from the VPC while continuing to endorse some other supposed evidence from the VPC. So which is it? Do you endorse the VPCs position that the number of DGU’s on an annual basis from 2007 to 2011 was 84,675 per year? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2664 "2013-08-07T17:01:27Z")
But … but … there was some glurge in his Facebook feed that said something he \*wants \*to be true! So there! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2665 "2013-08-07T18:45:15Z")
I need to correct my last line above. I treated the window of time from that data (2007-2011) as a four year period rather than a five year period. So the average DGU per year would be 67,740 instead of the number I gave above. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2666 "2013-08-07T19:35:33Z")
That doesn’t even break down the number of “uses” where the gun actually made any difference to the outcome, or was necessary or even appropriate, or even escalated the situation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2667 "2013-08-08T01:53:36Z")
[Jesus wants you to sell your clothes and buy a gun.](http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/former-navy-chaplain-jesus-wants-you-sell-yo) Problem is, you can’t get ammo for it because DHS is hoarding it as part of Obama’s scheme to enslave you. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2668 "2013-08-08T03:53:40Z")
I really wish there were more crazy left-wing gun nuts so someone would shoot Klingon Shit already. Regarding the defensive gun use discussion, can anyone even think of a way to get a study that might be in the same universe as truthful in the current political climate? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2669 "2013-08-08T10:49:31Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I really wish there were more crazy left-wing gun nuts so someone would shoot Klingon Shit already. > > Regarding the defensive gun use discussion, can anyone even think of a way to get a study that might be in the same universe as truthful in the current political climate? It is difficult, but I’m not sure the climate has much to do with it. The problem is that official records are likely to misscases that are unreported. However, surveying gun owners is problematic because they are by their very nature, likely to over report incidents, as well as reporting incidents that they themselves escalated as “defensive”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2670 "2013-08-08T13:21:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I really wish there were more crazy left-wing gun nuts Does the fact that most of the nuts are on the pro-murder-rights side mean anything to you? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2671 "2013-08-08T13:51:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Does the fact that most of the nuts are on the pro-murder-rights side mean anything to you? What does it mean, “Pro-murder-rights”? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2672 "2013-08-08T14:22:54Z")
Calling things what they are is _good_, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2673 "2013-08-09T01:21:45Z")
[Now the NRA wants the SCOTUS to strike down laws banning handgun sales to under-21-year-olds.](http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/court-battles/315989-nra-asks-supreme-court-to-lift-ban-on-handgun-sales-to-teens) Y’know, [whatever the reasons](http://gocomics.typepad.com/tomthedancingbugblog/2012/07/tragedy.html) why the Columbine High School massacre happened, it would not have happened if it had been just a **little** more difficult for two emotionally disturbed teenagers to amass a small arsenal of firearms and ammunition without some responsible adult finding out about it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2674 "2013-08-09T01:38:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Does the fact that most of the nuts are on the pro-murder-rights side mean anything to you? I want you to let that (“Your side is literally advocating murder!”) slide the next time a pro-lifer says it to you. (I’m vehemently pro-choice with no limitations, fyi.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2675 "2013-08-09T02:01:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Now the NRA wants the SCOTUS to strike down laws banning handgun sales to under-21-year-olds.](http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/court-battles/315989-nra-asks-supreme-court-to-lift-ban-on-handgun-sales-to-teens) > > Y’know, [whatever the reasons](http://gocomics.typepad.com/tomthedancingbugblog/2012/07/tragedy.html) why the Columbine High School massacre happened, it would not have happened if it had been just a **little** more difficult for two emotionally disturbed teenagers to amass a small arsenal of firearms and ammunition without some responsible adult finding out about it. That sounds a bit wrong even for a gun owner. Did the Columbine killers buy the guns, or did they use family member’s? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2676 "2013-08-09T02:21:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Now the NRA wants the SCOTUS to strike down laws banning handgun sales to under-21-year-olds.](http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/court-battles/315989-nra-asks-supreme-court-to-lift-ban-on-handgun-sales-to-teens) Not any under-21s, just younger than 18; the age at which you can vote, drink in many states, and join the Army against your parents’ wishes. > [@](#): > > Y’know, [whatever the reasons](http://gocomics.typepad.com/tomthedancingbugblog/2012/07/tragedy.html) why the Columbine High School massacre happened, it would not have happened if it had been just a **little** more difficult for two emotionally disturbed teenagers to amass a small arsenal of firearms and ammunition without some responsible adult finding out about it. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were under 18 when they illegally acquired their guns through straw buyers and a gun dealer who broke federal law by not recording the identity of a purchaser. So how do you propose to have enforced the broken laws? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2677 "2013-08-09T02:43:39Z")
Man, the fuckin’ NRA. Regarding Harris and Klebold, I expand my previous stance–The law SHOULD be such that the dealer who sold them the weapons should be prosecuted for murder–he made an inexcusable (to my knowledge, there’s nothing like a fake ID involved) error regarding transferring possession of a firearm that directly resulted in a murder. Mostly the reason I find gun threads so depressing anymore is that I can’t think of a political position taken by the NRA in the last five years that I wasn’t offended by. So the pro-gun types tend to think of me as a gun-grabbing quisling–especially because I’m, gasp, in favor of registration and licensing. Meanwhile, because I wholeheartedly support (for what I would consider to be solid moral reasons) the individual right to effective self-defense, I’m seen as a crazy gun-owning asshole by the other side. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2678 "2013-08-09T02:52:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were under 18 when they illegally acquired their guns through straw buyers and a gun dealer who broke federal law by not recording the identity of a purchaser. > > So how do you propose to have enforced the broken laws? Cracking down on illegal gun dealers would be a good start, but I daresay the NRA would have something to say against **that.** Not 30 years ago, but they’ve completely cut loose from reality, now. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2679 "2013-08-09T04:09:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Not any under-21s, just younger than 18; the age at which you can vote, drink in many states, and join the Army against your parents’ wishes. > > Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were under 18 when they illegally acquired their guns through straw buyers and a gun dealer who broke federal law by not recording the identity of a purchaser. > > So how do you propose to have enforced the broken laws? According to this article, neither the straw buyer nor the gun dealer were ever charged. > **[The Denver Post Online - Columbine - Tragedy and Recovery](https://extras.denverpost.com/news/shot0801.htm)** Turns out it was perfectly legal for the underaged guys to buy their guns (except the handgun) and they didn’t even need their 18-yo friend to buy for them. I seem to recall improper record keeping by licensed gun dealers, or even lack thereof, is a maximum misdemeanor, thanks to the NRA again. It would be nice if the ATF had the funding and manpower to, you know, enforce the laws we already have. That would be one way to enforce the laws. You know, have enough people whose job it is to, you know, enforce the laws. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2680 "2013-08-09T04:36:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Not any under-21s, just younger than 18; the age at which you can vote, drink in many states, and join the Army against your parents’ wishes. Well, I want every 18-year-old to vote, and I don’t much care if an 18-year-old is drunk, but I do care if he’s drunk and driving, and drunk and armed is **worse.** For that matter, **sober** and armed is more dangerous than drunk driving at that age, unless he’s actually in the Army (which is more dangerous still, but that’s another discussion). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=133) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=135)