# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 138
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2741 "2013-08-17T19:10:35Z")
> **[American Moms to Starbucks and CEO Howard Schultz: Ban Guns From Stores](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/starbucks-guns_b_3765070)** > > The Newtown Starbucks sits right next door to the church that laid several children to rest just 8 months ago. The wounds are still fresh and slow to heal. Taunting this community with a display of guns is unconscionable. The author is stupid because she is either ignorant or lying about guns and the guys who think its a good idea to try and make a statement about gun rights in Newtown, CT are stupid they have low IQs. Its never good idea to make meaningless gestures that just rile up the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2742 "2013-08-17T19:28:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is amazing how much you gunstrokers are able to convince yourselves that it’s impossible, that you’re the law-abiding citizens, that the “bad guys” are invariably someone else. But it’s self-delusion, as is demonstrated by the constant stream of gun deaths caused by those who think about themselves exactly what you think. You’re not a good guy or a bad guy, those concepts are artificial and not very useful, but you are a guy, including all the strengths \*and weaknesses \*that go along with it. Don’t pretend you’re not. I think you keep missing the point. Even if I were personally not allowed to own a gun I might still support the right to keep and bear arms because I recognize that there are benefits to private gun ownership that you seem to entirely ignore. Yes, some people flip out and kill people with guns that they would not [be able to] kill if they did not have a gun. But guns also prevent harm when it is used in self defense. You focus exclusively on the con side of the argument without giving any consideration to the pro side of the argument. > [@](#): > > But there’s another approach, one that virtually every other civilized society in the world uses, and which has demonstrable results in every one. What makes us so different here other than the extent to which we’ve allowed the problem to grow? ( **DA** , this is where you tell us there are too many guns to grab so it’s pointless to try) This is where I tell you that it would be impossible to confiscate all the guns because you could never pass that law. But in some mythical alternate universe where you could get that law passed you could not enforce the law because you don’t really know where the guns are. And even if we lived in an even more remote alternate universe where we had an active registry of all firearms so you could track down the guns, you would only be able to confiscate guns from the law abiding citizens. You would still be left with a large population of criminals (the ones most likely to commit future crimes) with a civilian monopoly on the use of firearms. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Frankly, if you figure out how to build me a personal shield generator, I’d rather have that than a gun. That’s my question to you–even granted the relatively low odds of an event happening where I’d prefer to have a firearm in self-defense, what are you suggesting doing to society or offering me in exchange for my firearm? Meet me halfway here–given my stated moral position on the right/duty to self-defense, what SHOULD I be doing? If we all had personal shield generators then guns wouldn’t really be a threat to anyone but people would still be deathly afraid of them. Especially if they have forward grips and bayonet lugs. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2743 "2013-08-17T20:02:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You are oblivious to the other side of the issue - that the person needed to be defended \*against \*might well be _you_. That there is much more than a non-zero chance that the origin of, or escalator of, a situation will be the person equipped to do so. Actually, given the hundreds of millions of guns out there, even if there were hundreds of thousands of offensive gun uses per year, that’d be pretty close to zero, not much more than zero. Still way too many, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2744 "2013-08-17T23:49:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But guns also prevent harm when it is used in self defense. You focus exclusively on the con side of the argument without giving any consideration to the pro side of the argument. We’ve been over this. More deaths are caused by the availability of guns than are prevented by it. About time you dealt with it. > [@](#): > > But in some mythical alternate universe where you could get that law passed you could not enforce the law because you don’t really know where the guns are. And this is where you show you still don’t realize how ridiculous the militia/tyranny stuff is that you find yourself forced to fall back on. > [@](#): > > And even if we lived in an even more remote alternate universe where we had an active registry of all firearms so you could track down the guns, you would only be able to confiscate guns from the law abiding citizens. This “law abiding citizen” stuff fascinates you, doesn’t it? You use it as a synonym for “gun owner” when it is nothing of the sort. Those, like you, who would resist any sort of registration law would become criminals, \*violent \*criminals if they resist. \*Not \*“law abiding citizens” :rolleyes: That means _you_, fool. There is no power on earth that can make you see yourself as something other than one of the “good guys” in a John Wayne film, is there? Too bad, life is a little more complicated than that. But, as a psychopath, you’re incapable of comprehending that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2745 "2013-08-17T23:55:14Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > So possessing weapons is, in your opinion, a secession from or rebellion against the rest of humanity? Are you really this dishonest or do you just have poor comprehension skills? The massaging of only one’s own perceived interests, and the discounting of other people’s as abstractions that must give way, is the psychosis. Demanding the right to carry the ability to kill others is evidence of that psychosis. > [@](#): > > I’m genuinely baffled by you; you seem incapable of conceiving of anyone other than a criminal or a barbarian wanting to possess the means of deadly force. What you personally want is not the supreme consideration, is it? That baffles you because of your inability to think of anyone else but your own damn self, much less to think of yourself as part of a society to which you have any responsibilities. So are you going to let the obvious inference about your reason for carrying a weapon int the Capitol simply stand, or do you have something to try to explain? IOW is there any reason _not_ to think of you as a fucking menace? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2746 "2013-08-18T00:42:05Z")
I tried- I really tried, everyone- to read and consider **ElvisL1ves** ’s response but it’s a total non-sequitur; I can’t figure out how what he says is supposed to reference my statements that he’s quoting. It’s like the Chewbacca Defense. All I’m getting is “You’re selfish! You’re selfish! You’re selfish!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2747 "2013-08-18T02:21:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The massaging of only one’s own perceived interests, and the discounting of other people’s as abstractions that must give way, is the psychosis. Sort of like how your own perceived interest allows you to discount ours as lies, psychosis, cover for some sort of deep-seated inadequacy or insanity, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2748 "2013-08-18T02:32:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …because of your inability to think of anyone else but your own damn self, much less to think of yourself as part of a society to which you have any responsibilities. I think of other people all the time. The actual, real people I think of sometimes are scary - not the altruistic “society” members you fantasize about. Reality and death is what you fear. The ones who may perpetrate it against me and my family are what I fear. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2749 "2013-08-18T13:03:34Z")
So your response is to give them \*more \*reason to fear \*you \*than vice versa? That’s sane? Here’s the same question for you that so often goes unanswered by others: What makes \*you \*one of the “good guys”? How can anyone else tell? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2750 "2013-08-18T13:05:10Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Sort of like how your own perceived interest allows you to discount ours as lies, psychosis, cover for some sort of deep-seated inadequacy or insanity, etc? When’s the last time hearing “I’m rubber, you’re glue!” convinced _you_ of a point? Gawdamm, boy, this ain’t fourth grade no more. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2751 "2013-08-18T13:08:14Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I tried- I really tried, everyone- to read and consider **ElvisL1ves** ’s response but it’s a total non-sequitur Yes, it’s already established that you are psychologically \*incapable \*of comprehending such an advanced topic as the existence and rights of others. But congratulations on admitting it; that’s the first step in overcoming a problem. Only eleven more to go … And we’re still waiting for an honest explanation of why you carried a firearm into the Capitol. Hell, you haven’t given \*yourself \*one, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2752 "2013-08-18T13:48:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it’s already established that you are psychologically \*incapable \*of comprehending such an advanced topic as the existence and rights of others. But congratulations on admitting it; that’s the first step in overcoming a problem. Only eleven more to go … > > And we’re still waiting for an honest explanation of why you carried a firearm into the Capitol. Hell, you haven’t given \*yourself \*one, have you? Ok, since this post is at least semi-coherent, I’ll give answering it a try: I carried a firearm into the Capitol primarily to prove a point: that I, as a citizen, felt that carrying is a right; and that I along with all the other pro-gun people there were demonstrating that gun bans are not the overwhelmingly popular measure the gun control advocates claim it is. The fact is that for legislators the bottom line are the votes that will keep them in office, and we sought to disabuse the legislators of the notion that the pro-gun people are a dismissable fringe. As to the existence and rights of others: I prove that I comprehend them by not treating the rest of humanity as prey that I can feed on at will- unlike numerous inhabitants of my section of town, according to the weekly police reports. And I prove it by NOT acting like a bully and a jerk even though I have a firearm and the majority of people around me probably do not. So how is anyone supposed to know that I am one of the “good guys”? Primarily by the fact that after carrying a gun for several years, I am not in prison or dead. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2753 "2013-08-18T14:32:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So your response is to give them \*more \*reason to fear \*you \*than vice versa? That’s sane? > > Here’s the same question for you that so often goes unanswered by others: What makes \*you \*one of the “good guys”? How can anyone else tell? Fear can be a strong motivator and it may be the only one available for use in some cases for certain types of people. Whether I actually am or appear objectively bad or good to them or anyone else is irrelevant. The overt indication that I am armed is enough to dissuade most common criminals. The possibility that I may be gives them pause. Have you ever found yourself approached by a stranger or strangers at night on the street in an empty urban area? A situation to be avoided, for sure, but it happens. I certainly don’t advocate shooting people under this type circumstance, but a hand to the hip followed loudly by “that’s close enough motherfucker!” Goes a long way towards preventing that violence you so fear in today’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2754 "2013-08-18T15:20:43Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Have you ever found yourself approached by a stranger or strangers at night on the street in an empty urban area? A situation to be avoided, for sure, but it happens. I certainly don’t advocate shooting people under this type circumstance, but a hand to the hip followed loudly by “that’s close enough motherfucker!” Goes a long way towards preventing that violence you so fear in today’s reality. Don’t you feel silly when it turns out they are just approaching you to let you know it isn’t a good area, and they’re wondering if you need directions/car help/whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2755 "2013-08-18T15:38:42Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Don’t you feel silly when it turns out they are just approaching you to let you know it isn’t a good area, and they’re wondering if you need directions/car help/whatever? Well you never know, because you can tell those types when they scurry off very quickly without saying anything, probably identifying with your type of thinking engendered in the imaginative minds of fearful sheep. The other type can actually be heard muttering obscenities as they skulk off slowly. That is a real world example of discriminating between the good and the bad you may never understand. Good luck if the day ever comes when reality slaps that right out of you. Now on your next “what if?” scenario… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2756 "2013-08-18T16:05:41Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Don’t you feel silly when it turns out they are just approaching you to let you know it isn’t a good area, and they’re wondering if you need directions/car help/whatever? I feel silly when flying pigs poop on my head, too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2757 "2013-08-18T16:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > …Well you never know, because you can tell those types when they scurry off very quickly without saying anything, probably identifying with your type of thinking engendered in the imaginative minds of fearful sheep. > > The other type can actually be heard muttering obscenities as they skulk off slowly. That is a real world example of discriminating between the good and the bad you may never understand. Good luck if the day ever comes when reality slaps that right out of you. So, this sort of thing happens to you frequently? And you know what is going on in their minds…how, exactly? You seem to posit a very rational thought process for the violent criminal, have you examined that idea closely? You ask us to believe that he does a very careful cost/benefit analysis, and, if he realizes that you are likely armed, he will defer his attack to someone less wise in the ways of the world. Have you had a lot of contact with such people, what is the source of your expertise? Has it occurred to you that your gun makes you a more inviting prospect, rather than less? Because, if you are like most of us hapless victims, you are not carrying a large wad of freely accessible cash. But the gun, now, there is a very saleable item, can be turned into cash rather quickly. But you have a gun! You can defend yourself! Sure, if they give you fair warning. What if they don’t? And why should they? Seems to me that this highly rational criminal/junkie you posit might very well include that question in their cost/benefit analysis, and be quickly drawn to the advantages of surprise and ambush. Still, it is comforting to know that there is another Tough Guy. What we need more of, more Tough Guys. Humanity and reason have failed us, welcome to Deadwood. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2758 "2013-08-18T17:08:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, this sort of thing happens to you frequently? And you know what is going on in their minds…how, exactly? > > You seem to posit a very rational thought process for the violent criminal, have you examined that idea closely? You ask us to believe that he does a very careful cost/benefit analysis, and, if he realizes that you are likely armed, he will defer his attack to someone less wise in the ways of the world. Have you had a lot of contact with such people, what is the source of your expertise? > > Has it occurred to you that your gun makes you a more inviting prospect, rather than less? Because, if you are like most of us hapless victims, you are not carrying a large wad of freely accessible cash. But the gun, now, there is a very saleable item, can be turned into cash rather quickly. > > But you have a gun! You can defend yourself! Sure, if they give you fair warning. What if they don’t? And why should they? Seems to me that this highly rational criminal/junkie you posit might very well include that question in their cost/benefit analysis, and be quickly drawn to the advantages of surprise and ambush. > > Still, it is comforting to know that there is another Tough Guy. What we need more of, more Tough Guys. Humanity and reason have failed us, welcome to Deadwood. You’ve seen the movies. Black street hoodlums always shuffle up to you with that one expression on their face. You know, where they are looking forward to abusing you? Then, they always give you plenty of time to draw your weapon, usually listening to your clever quip and calling you a jive turkey muthafucka. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2759 "2013-08-18T17:23:41Z")
**acewiza** , you’re the person I’m talking about when I say that gun advocates are congenitally panty-pissng scared people. You feel threatened doing what other men, women and children don’t think twice about doing every day. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2760 "2013-08-18T17:53:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > When’s the last time hearing “I’m rubber, you’re glue!” convinced _you_ of a point? Gawdamm, boy, this ain’t fourth grade no more. :rolleyes: There were two ways you could have handled that. One would have been “Sorry, I didn’t realize I myself was using the bad logic I’m accusing others of. Let’s drop that line of reasoning and have a serious conversation.” The other was the one you chose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=137) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=139)