# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2801 "2013-08-22T23:02:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m glad it worked out well for all concerned, but talking down a would-be gunman is risky to say the least. So is a gunfight at an elementary school. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2802 "2013-08-23T00:25:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So is a gunfight at an elementary school. Robert Rodriquez and Quentin Tarantino bring you . . . ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2803 "2013-08-23T01:08:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’ve proposed licensing and registration of all firearms. Zeriel has proposed imposing strict criminal liability for any crime committed with any firearm you ever owned or sold. What knee jerk wailing are you talking about? Confession, I read the first couple pages of this thread and then skipped and skimmed the last couple. The “knee jerk wailing” was in reference to other places I’ve posted on gun control issues and been swarmed by the irrational led by the delusional. To be honest, I’ve come to expect anyone outspokenly pro gun to be a Wayne Lapierre disciple. I’m not anti-gun. Anti-NRA. I hunt and I used to enjoy going to shooting ranges. But I’m horrified by the fanatics and their take no prisoners/no compromise/Armageddon is upon us rhetoric. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know if you’ve caught on yet but there is one side of this argument that is absolutist and another side that is willing to compromise but keep getting called baby killer. If you’re basing that strictly on the people in this thread, beyond Acewiz, I haven’t seen anything to contradict it. But my experience with the rabid part of the pro gun crowd elsewhere ( If they’re not the majority, then they sure do a good job covering that up with the volume) is 180 from that. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > IOW, the debate is more or less over. That sucks. Because I’m annoyed. And I can’t figure out what’s apples, what’s oranges and how the whole puzzle should fit together. And it’s strange. This is one subject where the numbers are meaningless to me. It’s the outliers that I find haunting. The ones where I think," That could’ve been prevented so easily…". The gun show shootings. The kids finding a loaded “toy” to play with. People with no training who are a menace to everyone _and_ themselves. I’d really like an intelligent conversation on how to obviate the stupid/crazy element in gun ownership. When I get a chance, I’ll go back through the thread and try to get up to speed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2804 "2013-08-23T01:59:54Z")
> [@sylmar](#): > > Confession, I read the first couple pages of this thread and then skipped and skimmed the last couple. Then I need to give you a heads up. Where **Damuri Ajashi** claims to have provided a bunch of statistics, he’s full of shit. He’s primarily linked to quotes from other people. He cannot judge statistics. He cannot judge evidence. His ability to evaluate the merits of a particular source starts and ends with whether he already agreed with their conclusion to begin with. Let’s put this to the test right now. Several times, **Damuri Ajashi** has made statements like the following: > [@](#): > > The best information we have tells us that there are ~350,000 defensive gun uses per year. Let’s ask him if he can explain \*\*why \*\*that estimate is a better estimate than 2.5 million per year or 65,000 per year. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2805 "2013-08-24T01:06:28Z")
> [@sylmar](#): > > Confession, I read the first couple pages of this thread and then skipped and skimmed the last couple. Not to put too fine a point on it, then, but you’re an idiot. > [@](#): > > The “knee jerk wailing” was in reference to other places I’ve posted on gun control issues and been swarmed by the irrational led by the delusional. To be honest, I’ve come to expect anyone outspokenly pro gun to be a Wayne Lapierre disciple. I’m not anti-gun. Anti-NRA. Frankly, I’m outspokenly pro-gun, and I’m pretty sure if I stuck my actual dick in Wayne Lapierre’s eye and ejaculated in his brainpan it’d up his IQ by at least 20 points. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2806 "2013-08-24T14:57:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t think he really differentiates between you, me and Ted Nugent. Since you bring it up, tell us more - what \*are \*the differences? Besides Nugent having talent, fame, and fortune, that is. And are the differences you’re able to articulate ones of kind or merely degree? Of substance or merely style? This oughta be interesting. > [@](#): > > Unarmed civilian incapatitate unarmed civilian frequently and visibly enough that he ought to know better. Kinda undercutting yourself there, aintcha? Can we assume, btw, that you’re no longer going to try to tell us that your side’s defeat of Manchin-Toomey was Dianne Feinstein’s fault somehow, there being no supporting evidence you can find? Can we take your recent silence as an admission you have no concern for truth in your rants? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2807 "2013-08-24T18:43:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Since you bring it up, tell us more - what \*are \*the differences? Besides Nugent having talent, fame, and fortune, that is. “Talent”. That said, I’ll articulate one difference easily enough–I’m not stupid enough to flagrantly violate hunting laws on camera, nor am I fanatic enough to want to violate them in general. Nor am I hypocrite enough to shit myself to avoid the draft and then sell myself as some kind of “support the troops/military” uber-patriot when my career wanes. I’m also an Obama voter. I think firearms registration/licensing is a good thing. There are people who should not be permitted firearms ownership, even in the absence of prior firearm malfeasance, based on psychiatric evaluations or prior actions that indicate a serious risk of malfeasance (such as hate speech). I think the NRA’s political lobbying efforts and rabble-rousing are causing the entire organisation to be a net detriment to society and they should go back as a whole to gun safety/hunting safety education and activism. I’m actually pretty sure I disagree with Ted Nugent to some degree on every political position he’s uttered in this century. As for whether that’s a difference of kind or degree, I don’t know. I suspect both you and The Nuge would say it’s a difference only of degree–but he’d be thinking I’m differing in degree only from YOU, not him. And that last bit is why it’s hard to be an advocate for registration/licensing (better rules AND better enforcement) AND a gun owner/user. The extremists who dominate the conversation on both sides hate you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2808 "2013-08-26T03:17:38Z")
> [@sylmar](#): > > Confession, I read the first couple pages of this thread and then skipped and skimmed the last couple. :smack: This thread is monumentally long so let me boil it down for you. We have had this debate in great debates and the gun control side loses just about every time. They lose on constitutionality. They lose on the stupidity of the Assault Weapons ban (the cornerstone of the most recent gun control push). They lose on almost every metric. The debate only continues in the pit because the gun control side don’t have to present any rational arguments and can just run around calling everyone else a baby-killer. > [@](#): > > The “knee jerk wailing” was in reference to other places I’ve posted on gun control issues …But I’m horrified by the fanatics and their take no prisoners/no compromise/Armageddon is upon us rhetoric… my experience with the rabid part of the pro gun crowd elsewhere ( If they’re not the majority, then they sure do a good job covering that up with the volume) is 180 from that. Have you seen this on this board or at places like [thezombieapocalypseisreal.com](http://thezombieapocalypseisreal.com)? > [@](#): > > That sucks. Because I’m annoyed. And I can’t figure out what’s apples, what’s oranges and how the whole puzzle should fit together. > > And it’s strange. This is one subject where the numbers are meaningless to me. It’s the outliers that I find haunting. The ones where I think," That could’ve been prevented so easily…". > > The gun show shootings. The kids finding a loaded “toy” to play with. People with no training who are a menace to everyone _and_ themselves. > > I’d really like an intelligent conversation on how to obviate the stupid/crazy element in gun ownership. When I get a chance, I’ll go back through the thread and try to get up to speed. If the numbers are meaningless to you then you’re just going to believe what you want anyways so why bother having anyone explain their position to you? There are ~30,000 gun deaths every year. ~18,000 of them are suicides. If we all have the right to own firearms. You can’t prevent these suicides and there is some evidence that a lot of these gun suicides would be replaced by other forms of suicide (See, Australia gun ban). ~700 are accidental/negligent ~300 are justifiable homicide by civilians of the 11,000 criminal homicides, the vast majority are committed by prohibited persons, approximately 57% (or ~6,270) are committed by convicted felons; ~800 are under 18. The list of prohibited persons also includes anyone convicted of misdemeanor domestic abuse or are under a restraining order; dishonorably discharged, addicts, fugitives from justice, addicts, illegal aliens, the mentally ill, and those who have renounced citizenship. its hard to peg down the number but in large cities with prohibitive gun regulations, upwards of 90% of gun murderers have a criminal history. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > He’s primarily linked to quotes from other people.'\ Isn’t that the way its usually done? > [@](#): > > Let’s ask him if he can explain \*\*why \*\*that estimate is a better estimate than 2.5 million per year or 65,000 per year. What do you think the number is? Because you act as if its zero. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Since you bring it up, tell us more - what \*are \*the differences? Ted Nugent would not support licensing and registration. > [@](#): > > Can we assume, btw, that you’re no longer going to try to tell us that your side’s defeat of Manchin-Toomey was Dianne Feinstein’s fault somehow, there being no supporting evidence you can find? Can we take your recent silence as an admission you have no concern for truth in your rants? Nope, I have pointed to the thread in great debates where this issue was discussed. The general consensus was that the gun grabbers hurt their own cause by pushing for an AWB (and by generally being ignorant and stupid). > [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m glad it worked out well for all concerned, but talking down a would-be gunman is risky to say the least. I hope most people realize this isn’t always- or even often- an option. We got lucky with that one but gunmen are [frequently] disabled by unarmed by unarmed civilians. I suspect those unarmed civilians wished they were armed at the time. However, considering the teeny tiny percentage of gun murders that are committed like this, I don’t think it makes sense to craft national policy around these incredibly rare events. More people die from accidental discharge than from mass shooting murders. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2809 "2013-08-26T03:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] You can’t prevent these suicides and there is some evidence that a lot of these gun suicides would be replaced by other forms of suicide (See, Australia gun ban). [/quote] Got a cite for that? > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > … its hard to peg down the number but in large cities with prohibitive gun regulations, upwards of 90% of gun murderers have a criminal history. Got a cite for that? > [@](#): > > Isn’t that the way its usually done? NOTE: For the reader, this is DAs reply to my pointing out that his cites are often to a quote from some guy. This stupid fuck is too dumb to understand that Bill Bennett saying something is not evidence. A quote from some lawyer in LA does not make something so. > [@](#): > > What do you think the number is? Because you act as if its zero. NOTE: For the reader, this is in response to my request for DA to state why the 350k figure for defensive gun use is the “best estimate.”. I suppose we all figured that he would be incapable of answering coherently, sure. At this point, I feel a bit like I’m in a boxing match with a blind quadriplegic. Still, like the Black Knight in the Holy Grail, this douchebag has no clue how impotent he is. He’s still going to assert that he’s mastered the numbers and stats and cites, and that gun control advocates lose on all counts. So, I’m sure within a few posts we’ll hear again about how “we’ve established that the 350k estimate is the best” despite the fact that he has no idea how to evaluate the merit of a piece of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2810 "2013-08-26T04:08:15Z")
**Hentor** , FYI, I’d love to see the same cites you want to see. In particular, the idea that “when guns are more restricted, more gun crimes are committed by career criminals” is something I’ve never seen stats on despite it being essentially a real-world formulation of “when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns”. **Damuri** , let’s be clear–if risk analysis is part of the discussion, it’s incredibly important to have an idea of the actual numbers involved on the good side of the ledger. As far as I know, in terms of studies that actually had a ghost of a chance of controlling for the cultural realities of what people will assert about their own gun use, there is absolutely no good data at all on defensive gun use. Can you please provide an academic cite otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2811 "2013-08-26T13:28:52Z")
While we wait for **Damuri Ajashi’s** latest non-response, here’s some actual facts on the rate of non-firearm suicides in Australia after their gun ban. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/) “Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, **without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides**.” (bolding mine) [Chapman et al (2006). Journal: Injury Prevention](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeffsachs.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2FAustralia-Gun-Law-Reforms.pdf&ei=V1QbUvuDJfKA2QWiuoGQBA&usg=AFQjCNHcAPm5vEhEjiSklXFpC8HulBhUPg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I&cad=rja) > [@](#): > > Figure 1F and table 3 indicate that the rate of total nonfirearm suicides increased by an average of 2.3% per year before the introduction of the gun law and **reduced by an average of 4.1% per year after the introduction of the gun laws** (see row 6, columns 2 and 3, respectively in table 3). The ratio of the pre-law to-post-law trends differs statistically (p,0.001). (bolding mine) > **[About this Collection | Legal Reports (Publications of the Law Library of...](https://www.loc.gov/collections/publications-of-the-law-library-of-congress/about-this-collection/)** > > This collection features research reports and other publications on a wide range of legal topics prepared by the Law Library of Congress in response to requests or recurring interest from Congress and other federal government entities on issues... > [@](#): > > Nationally, firearm suicides dropped from a rate of 2.2 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.8 in 2006. Firearm homicides also dropped, from 0.37 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.15 in 2006. These figures show “drops of 65% and 59%, respectively, and among a population of 20 million individuals, represent a decline in the number of deaths by firearm suicide of about 300 and in the number of deaths by firearm homicide of about 40 per year. **At the same time, the non-firearm suicide rate has fallen by 27% and the non-firearm homicide rate by 59%.** ”[94] (bolding mine) The bottom line continues to be that **Damuri Ajashi** is reliably and consistently incorrect regarding essentially each and every assertion he makes about firearms’ related stats and figures. At this point, one can only conclude that he is willfully and intentionally lying, and that he is thus a piece of shit douchebag lacking in any sort of integrity and character. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2812 "2013-08-26T15:22:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ted Nugent would not support licensing and registration. Your \*actions \*show that you don’t either. So that leaves us with … what? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Nope, I have pointed to the thread in great debates where this issue was discussed. The general consensus was that the gun grabbers hurt their own cause by pushing for an AWB (and by generally being ignorant and stupid). IOW, all you have for a basis to support your belief is that a few other people believe it too. Nothing by way of actual news reporting, or even informed commentary, about your side’s pols actually having their votes influenced. IOW, **Hentor** ’s assessment about your integrity is correct. > [@](#): > > However, considering the teeny tiny percentage of gun murders that are committed like this, I don’t think it makes sense to craft national policy around these incredibly rare events. More people die from accidental discharge than from mass shooting murders. And you still don’t realize that these statements, of yours, are powerful arguments for a total ban, do you? :rolleyes: Of course not, you don’t have a plausible alternative to propose that your actions show you even believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2813 "2013-08-26T16:03:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Got a cite for that? > [@wikipedia](#): > > Some researchers have found a significant change in the rate of firearm suicides after the legislative changes. For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004)[32] in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[33] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods. It has been noted that drawing strong conclusions about possible impacts of gun laws on suicides is challenging, because a number of suicide prevention programs were implemented from the mid-1990s onwards, and non-firearm suicides also began falling.[34] [Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia) > [@](#): > > Got a cite for that? You’ve seen this cite before. Several times > [@](#): > > A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders in that city between 2003 and 2005 found that “more than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.” Baltimore police records show similar statistics for its murder suspects in 2006. In Milwaukee, police reported that most murder suspects in 2007 had criminal records, while “a quarter of them [killed while] on probation or parole.” The great majority of Illinois murderers from the years 1991–2000 had prior felony records. Eighty percent of Atlanta murder arrestees had previously been arrested at least once for a drug offense; 70 percent had three or more prior drug arrests—in addition to their arrests for other crimes. -[Gun Control Restricts Those Least Likely to Commit Violent Crimes: News: The Independent Institute](http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2472) > [@](#): > > NOTE: For the reader, this is DAs reply to my pointing out that his cites are often to a quote from some guy. This stupid fuck is too dumb to understand that Bill Bennett saying something is not evidence. A quote from some lawyer in LA does not make something so. On what point was I quoting Bill Bennetts opinion again? Do you remember? And are all my cites from Bill Bennet? none from the Department fo Justice or the Violence Prevention Center or from some the gun grabbers in academia? > [@](#): > > NOTE: For the reader, this is in response to my request for DA to state why the 350k figure for defensive gun use is the “best estimate.”. I suppose we all figured that he would be incapable of answering coherently, sure. At this point, I feel a bit like I’m in a boxing match with a blind quadriplegic. Still, like the Black Knight in the Holy Grail, this douchebag has no clue how impotent he is. He’s still going to assert that he’s mastered the numbers and stats and cites, and that gun control advocates lose on all counts. > > So, I’m sure within a few posts we’ll hear again about how “we’ve established that the 350k estimate is the best” despite the fact that he has no idea how to evaluate the merit of a piece of evidence. These are the numbers from the Department of Justice. If you’ve got another number than out with it, don’t be coy? Is it because almost all the other estimates are several times larger? Like I said, you want to pretend the number is basically zero. Because you can’t maintain your absolutist stance unless it is zero or close to it. So what do you consider a reasonable estimate of the incidents of defensive gun use? > [@Zeriel](#): > > **Hentor** , FYI, I’d love to see the same cites you want to see. yeah, good luck with that, we’ve been trying to get that out of him for 50 pages. He prefers to find uncertainty in the cites of others and declare them fatally flawed. > [@](#): > > **Damuri** , let’s be clear–if risk analysis is part of the discussion, it’s incredibly important to have an idea of the actual numbers involved on the good side of the ledger. As far as I know, in terms of studies that actually had a ghost of a chance of controlling for the cultural realities of what people will assert about their own gun use, there is absolutely no good data at all on defensive gun use. Can you please provide an academic cite otherwise? There are a lot of academic studies out there. [Defensive gun use - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use) But if you are saying you don’t find any studies based on surveys to be reliable (because people who think gun owners are baby killers to begin with also think that gun owners are congential liars) then how exactly do you propose we collect information about defensive gun use? I know that Hentor would like to limit defensive gun use to instances where someone actually shoots a criminal but its seems obvious to me that the number is much larger than that. This site has some pretty useful facts. I think its pretty fact based and doesn’t seem to have an agenda either way: > **[Just Facts - About Us](https://www.justfacts.com/aboutus.asp)** > > Just Facts - Mission, Who We Are, and Standardsort out s of Credibility. > **[Just Facts - Gun Control](https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp)** > > Comprehensive and meticulously documented facts about gun control. Learn about ownership rates, crime, background checks, accidents, politics, and more. > **[Just Facts - Gun Control](https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.fourexamples.asp#times)** > > Comprehensive and meticulously documented facts about gun control. Learn about ownership rates, crime, background checks, accidents, politics, and more. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > While we wait for **Damuri Ajashi’s** latest non-response, here’s some actual facts on the rate of non-firearm suicides in Australia after their gun ban. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/) > > “Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, **without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides**.” (bolding mine) > > [Chapman et al (2006). Journal: Injury Prevention](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeffsachs.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2FAustralia-Gun-Law-Reforms.pdf&ei=V1QbUvuDJfKA2QWiuoGQBA&usg=AFQjCNHcAPm5vEhEjiSklXFpC8HulBhUPg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I&cad=rja) > > (bolding mine) From the study referernces in the Washington post blog: > [@](#): > > Non-firearm suicides, on the other hand, have remained relatively high > compared to historical averages, despite declines in the early 2000s. The > increase in non-firearm suicides from 1996 to 1998 is noteworthy, since > some commentators (for instance, Baker and McPhedran 2007) have > pointed to this as possible evidence of substitution from guns to other methods of suicide following the gun buyback. Non-firearm homicides > have likewise remained relatively high compared to long-run historical > averages, although they appear to have dropped sharply since 2004. So there is “some evidence” that there was a substitution effect. > [@](#): > > The bottom line continues to be that **Damuri Ajashi** is reliably and consistently incorrect regarding essentially each and every assertion he makes about firearms’ related stats and figures. At this point, one can only conclude that he is willfully and intentionally lying, and that he is thus a piece of shit douchebag lacking in any sort of integrity and character. And THIS is the crux of the anti-gun side of the argument. The pro-gun folks are poopyheads and despite the fact that they cannot support their positions we are supposed to just believe what they believe, mostly on faith. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2814 "2013-08-26T16:12:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Your \*actions \*show that you don’t either. So that leaves us with … what? :dubious: You can keep saying that as long as you want but you have never been able to point to anything that indicates that I don’t support licensing and registration other than the fact that I support gun ownership and oppose stupid gun laws. > [@](#): > > IOW, all you have for a basis to support your belief is that a few other people believe it too. Nothing by way of actual news reporting, or even informed commentary, about your side’s pols actually having their votes influenced. IOW, **Hentor** ’s assessment about your integrity is correct. I think your poor reasoning ability largely comes from the fact that you are built like a Republican but raised as a Democrat. I guess its nature versus nurture, you have Republican instincts but you have been indictrinated with Democratic dogma. The result is an mindless automaton that just repeats partisan bullshit but just happens to be on the right side of the debate most of the time. > [@](#): > > And you still don’t realize that these statements, of yours, are powerful arguments for a total ban, do you? :rolleyes: Of course not, you don’t have a plausible alternative to propose that your actions show you even believe in. You still don’t understand that the notion that people use guns in self defense with far greater frequency than people get killed accidentally by guns do you? If you only look at one side of an equation the equiation always seems unbalanced (kinds like you). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2815 "2013-08-27T03:42:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are a lot of academic studies out there. [Defensive gun use - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use) But if you are saying you don’t find any studies based on surveys to be reliable (because people who think gun owners are baby killers to begin with also think that gun owners are congential liars) then how exactly do you propose we collect information about defensive gun use? It seems to me that all of those are survey studies or estimates based on same, done while guns were a political hot-button issue–specifically, after the Brady Bill was passed and gun control got significantly more national-level attention than previously. That is, I don’t believe that their methodology can result in actually viable statistics, especially as one person’s “defensive gun use” is another’s “that maniac pulled a gun on me for no reason so I bailed”–we’ve got a guy in this very thread who described a situation I thought sounded like the latter (Acewiza’s “what are you looking at, motherfucker”. I have no doubt he’d call that a defensive gun use, I do not believe based on his story he had enough evidence of a credible threat to claim to have stopped same.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2816 "2013-08-27T03:59:22Z")
When that happened to me, I just gave him the Samuel L. Jackson eyeball and started in with “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men…” White guys aren’t supposed to be able to do that eyeball thing, so it confuses the shit out of them and they run away. Gotta remember not to do it around other folks, because the same thing happens. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2817 "2013-08-27T11:43:37Z")
Okay, I’m just going to take this in pieces (and to pieces, of course) both to economize my time and because one of **Damuri Ajashi’s** tactics is to try to baffle by sheer volume with massive wall-of-text multi-topic bullshit. So… **Topic 1: Suicides in Australia.** The facts are that there is no evidence for a substitution of suicide by other methods following the gun ban in Australia. I’ve already pointed to three different takes on the subject, including a peer reviewed publication. There was even a nice graph showing how the slightly increasing trend pre gun ban turned to a more sharply decreasing trend afterwards. What evidence does **DA** come back with? > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > Originally Posted by **Wikipedia** > Some researchers have found a significant change in the rate of firearm suicides after the legislative changes. For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004)[32] in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[33] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods. It has been noted that drawing strong conclusions about possible impacts of gun laws on suicides is challenging, because a number of suicide prevention programs were implemented from the mid-1990s onwards, and non-firearm suicides also began falling.[34] > [Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia) I present several publications, he comes back having scanned Wikipedia, with a bit about something to do with the rate of hanging suicides up to 1998? What the fuck? The gun ban and buyback wasn’t completed until 1997! His evidence is an allusion to data on a single specific method of suicide that almost completely predates the gun ban? Note also that his own cite says that the number of non-firearm suicides also began falling. Where’s the affirmative evidence for a substitution of suicide by different methods? **Damuri Ajashi** , you claimed that there was a substitution of suicide methods in Australia. You haven’t produced any evidence that this was true, and in fact I’ve shown you evidence that refutes your assertion completely. This is what I’m talking about when I suggest that **Damuri Ajashi** is totally incapable of evaluating the merits of a piece of evidence. I am 90% sure that what happened was that some gun advocacy site told him that if you take away guns, people will just find other methods to kill themselves, and he believed it. **DA** , will you retract your assertion about substitution of suicide methods? A few other notes, only tangentially related to Topic 1: [Quote=DA] > [@Zeriel](#): > > Hentor, FYI, I’d love to see the same cites you want to see. yeah, good luck with that, we’ve been trying to get that out of him for 50 pages. He prefers to find uncertainty in the cites of others and declare them fatally flawed. [/quote] He’s saying he wants to see YOU provide the cites that I asked for, you abject moron. By the way, that’s the way it works, stupid. If you want to make a claim, you have to back it up. For example, if you want to say that CCW people are safer than regular people, you have to back it up. It’s not incumbent upon me to find evidence that they are riskier than most people, or that they are equivalent in safety. I didn’t advance those points, you total imbecile. When I do advance those points, you can demand that I produce evidence to support them. And finally: > [@DA](#): > > And THIS is the crux of the anti-gun side of the argument. The pro-gun folks are poopyheads and despite the fact that they cannot support their positions we are supposed to just believe what they believe, mostly on faith. On each and every point I will provide evidence. He will come back with vague and unconvincing Wikipedia cites or references to “Bill Bennett says so.” He will then conclude each time with something like this. He must be confused, because other people told him all these things were true, so why doesn’t everyone else just believe him when he says them. Topic 2 to come later… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2818 "2013-08-27T13:23:41Z")
Another law-abiding citizen ©[exercises his Second Amendment rights](http://hamptonroads.com/2012/10/va-beach-students-say-man-aimed-gun-them). Yep, if some kids on a school bus make fun of the Confederate flag on your pickup truck, it’s okay to wave yer gun at 'em, right? Practically yer duty, even. Give 'em a lesson on the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2819 "2013-08-27T19:28:54Z")
In today’s paper; the incident occurred several weeks ago, but the trial is now underway: [http://www.kgw.com/news/S-Ore-man-in-court-for-firing-assault-rifle-killing-girl--221336191.html](http://www.kgw.com/news/S-Ore-man-in-court-for-firing-assault-rifle-killing-girl--221336191.html) "GRANTS PASS, Ore. – A Southern Oregon man charged with firing his assault rifle while using it as a crutch, killing a little girl, was back in court. The Daily Courier reports that Jon Meyer, Jr.'s lawyer asked for a delay at yesterday’s hearing in Grants Pass. Defense lawyer Gary Berlant said he has not received all the police reports from the shooting that killed 5-year-old Alysa Bobbitt of Shady Cove." I guess he’s looking for evidence that she provoked him, and he was standing his ground. She was in the apartment upstairs; he fired through the ceiling of his apartment. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2820 "2013-08-27T22:01:09Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > In today’s paper; the incident occurred several weeks ago, but the trial is now underway: > > [http://www.kgw.com/news/S-Ore-man-in-court-for-firing-assault-rifle-killing-girl--221336191.html](http://www.kgw.com/news/S-Ore-man-in-court-for-firing-assault-rifle-killing-girl--221336191.html) > > "GRANTS PASS, Ore. – A Southern Oregon man charged with firing his assault rifle while using it as a crutch, killing a little girl, was back in court. > > The Daily Courier reports that Jon Meyer, Jr.'s lawyer asked for a delay at yesterday’s hearing in Grants Pass. > > Defense lawyer Gary Berlant said he has not received all the police reports from the shooting that killed 5-year-old Alysa Bobbitt of Shady Cove." > > I guess he’s looking for evidence that she provoked him, and he was standing his ground. She was in the apartment upstairs; he fired through the ceiling of his apartment. And he wants us to be good to our daughters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=140) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=142)