# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2841 "2013-08-30T17:38:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A matter of style, not substance. A lack of froth on the lips when stating a position does not make the position reasonable. So what’s the furthest position toward “pro-gun” that’s reasonable in your worldview? Maybe name an exemplar country’s set of laws, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2842 "2013-08-30T23:43:07Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Going back to the original thread with this lovely story of two law abiding gun carrying campers who suddenly weren’t law abiding anymore. For added juicyness they are both also LA deputies. > > [Rival campers who opened fire turn out to be sheriff's deputies](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-sheriff-shooting-20130827,0,303511.story) Well, good thing they’re both good guys with guns. And that they fired their magical bang-sticks of manliness into the air in an attempt to frighten off challengers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2843 "2013-09-03T06:23:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Where’s the affirmative evidence for a substitution of suicide by different methods? **Damuri Ajashi** , you claimed that there was a substitution of suicide methods in Australia. You haven’t produced any evidence that this was true, and in fact I’ve shown you evidence that refutes your assertion completely. You make it sound like I said that every gun suicide would be replaced by a hanging or something, I’m not talking about a 100% substitution effect. Are you trying to defend the ridiculous position that an absence of guns would result in the reduction of the suicide rate by the previous rate of gun suicides? The gun buyback/confiscation in Australia began in 1996 and ended in 1997. So with so many fewer guns in private hands in 1997 and 1998, why did the gross number of suicides stay level for several years while the gun suicide rate dropped off immediately if there wasn’t some substitution effect (in fact, didn’t the aggregate suicide rate went up by 10% from 13.07/100,000 to 14.69 in 1997)? Gun suicides used to account for 22% of all suicides and after the gun buyback accounted for 7% of all suicides and yet the suicide rate didn’t drop 14% from the pre-buyback levels until about 2002 which could just as easily be attributed to the economy or unemployment. > [@](#): > > **DA** , will you retract your assertion about substitution of suicide methods? Not yet. You haven’t even proven that you have the better argument never mind one that would force me to admit error. BTW, do you still think that the mere fact of having a gun in your home causes you to be three times more likely to die from gun homicide? How many defensive gun uses do you think occur every year? And do you not have a reply button because you clip quote in a way that requires more effort on my part to identify the context of the statement you are responding to. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Y’know, I wrote a letter to Toomey when he put up that gun bill, saying it was literally the first thing he’d done since he was elected my senator that I could respect him for. > > But that’s fine, you just keep trying to radicalize me. I’m actually 3/4 convinced you’re a LaPierre groupie playing some sort of stupid false flag game to convince people there actually ARE gun grabbers out there. He’s not trying to radicalize you. He’s just crazy. > [@sinjin](#): > > Going back to the original thread with this lovely story of two law abiding gun carrying campers who suddenly weren’t law abiding anymore. For added juicyness they are both also LA deputies. > > [Rival campers who opened fire turn out to be sheriff's deputies](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-sheriff-shooting-20130827,0,303511.story) Yeah we should disarm the cops too.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > BTW, IMHO, Zeriel is one of the few rational folks in this thread. And I apologize for getting apeshit several pages back, I try not to read anything DA says but sometimes I slip.😕 I am not against guns, I am not a gun grabber. I actually own several rifles I got when my dad died. They are safely stored in a gun safe. That doesn’t sound like an apology.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2844 "2013-09-03T12:38:23Z")
Folks, this is a prime example of the combination of deceitful and stupid that **Damuri Ajashi** is. Here’s his original quote: > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > You can’t prevent these suicides and there is some evidence that a lot of these gun suicides would be replaced by other forms of suicide (See, Australia gun ban). There is evidence? Sure, it’s his cute little reference to “Australia, gun ban” as if he is the index of some compendium of knowledge. Okay, let’s have him show that evidence to us. So he comes back a while later having grabbed something _post hoc_ from wikipedia that says that someone found something about the rate of hangings using a data series that almost exclusively **predated** the gun ban. So, his evidence of the effect of the gun ban on suicide-method substitution comes **before** the gun ban. Oh and also too all those people who show the opposite haven’t taking into account the anti-suicide campaigns of the early 1990s! So, his “evidence” turns out to be complete bullshit. Does he have the integrity to acknowledge this? No, he’s a deceitful little shit. He has nothing to say about the actual evidence, such as that cited in my post [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16606490&postcount=2811) All he can do is cling to a wiki-grab and spit bullshit. His latest claim is this: > [@](#): > > The gun buyback/confiscation in Australia began in 1996 and ended in 1997. So with so many fewer guns in private hands in 1997 and 1998, why did the gross number of suicides stay level for several years while the gun suicide rate dropped off immediately if there wasn’t some substitution effect (in fact, didn’t the aggregate suicide rate went up by 10% from 13.07/100,000 to 14.69 in 1997)? Look, again he’s trying to talk about changes that occurred prior to the completion of the gun buy back, also without providing a link or actual data. Here’s the actual data as to the rate of suicide following the gun ban/buyback period (from [here](http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=6442468269): Suicides by year in Australia: 1997: 2,722 1998: 2,683 1999: 2,492 2000: 2,367 2001: 2,457 2002: 2,320 2003: 2,214 2004: 2,098 2005: 2,102 2006: 1,799 A steady decline in the period following. In addition, if you look at the report, Figure 2.2 demonstrates that not only was there a decline, but by 2006 the rate of suicides among men had fallen to their lowest point it _at least_ 30 years. > [@Harrison](#): > > The most frequently used method of suicide in all years since 1997 was hanging (Table 2.5). Poisoning by other methods (which includes carbon monoxide poisoning) was the next most frequent, followed by poisoning by drugs, and firearms. **The largest decreases over the period were seen in suicide by firearms (329 cases in 1997 down to 155 cases in 2006),** poisoning by other methods (671 cases in 1997 down to 249 cases in 2006) and drowning (73 cases in 1997 down to 41 cases in 2006). **Suicide by hanging, the most frequently used method, has shown large fluctuations from year to year, being highest in 1998 and lowest in 2006.** bolding mine. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > Gun suicides used to account for 22% of all suicides and after the gun buyback accounted for 7% of all suicides and yet the suicide rate didn’t drop 14% from the pre-buyback levels until about 2002 which could just as easily be attributed to the economy or unemployment. As to the rate of suicide, this is false. Please cite your sources. The rate of suicide in Australia using actual data sources has fallen precipitously since 1998. As to your purported explanation, this is just pure spitballing. But note that you are not arguing at this point that people simply substitute other methods of suicide. You’re now arguing that the economy or unemployment explains why you don’t see the effect you’re claiming is there. Are you a man? Do you have any integrity whatsoever? You appear to lack any sense of shame, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2845 "2013-09-03T15:28:41Z")
_There’s_ part of the difference. Ted Nugent is consistent and honest. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2846 "2013-09-03T15:33:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So what’s the furthest position toward “pro-gun” that’s reasonable in your worldview? Maybe name an exemplar country’s set of laws, perhaps. Name almost any fucking other one anywhere. The UK and Australia are good ones, for instance. Surely you’re not going to tell us how they’re groaning under the crush of tyranny, helpless without their ability to fight back against the government jackboots, are you? Oh wait, you _are_? Or some of your allies are going to? _Really_? 😛 You’re \*really \*having trouble grasping that the US’s laws, and the size of its gun-fetish culture, are on the extreme howling nutbag end of the spectrum, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2847 "2013-09-03T16:43:47Z")
You can’t turn the USA into the UK or Australia simply by restricting guns. And no, it isn’t the “gun fetish culture” that’s the reason. Overall, the gun violence rate closely correlates with how big an impoverished underclass a nation has. Australia has little, the UK only moderate, the USA substantial, and some Latin American nations with endemic poverty have even worse gun crime problems than the USA. Seriously, subtract gang and drug related gun violence and the rest of society has very little problem with guns. And conversely, do you really think that an entire barbaric alternate sub-culture, which has virtually seceeded from civilization as we know it, can be effectively disarmed? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2848 "2013-09-03T16:57:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You can’t turn the USA into the UK or Australia simply by restricting guns. And no, it isn’t the “gun fetish culture” that’s the reason. Overall, the gun violence rate closely correlates with how big an impoverished underclass a nation has. Australia has little, the UK only moderate, the USA substantial, and some Latin American nations with endemic poverty have even worse gun crime problems than the USA. > > Seriously, subtract gang and drug related gun violence and the rest of society has very little problem with guns. And conversely, do you really think that an entire barbaric alternate sub-culture, which has virtually seceeded from civilization as we know it, can be effectively disarmed? If this is true, it should be evident in the data. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2849 "2013-09-03T17:18:06Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You can’t turn the USA into the UK or Australia simply by restricting guns. Who wants to? The goal is to make our own country a better, safer, more decent place to live. Are you opposed to that? > [@](#): > > And no, it isn’t the “gun fetish culture” that’s the reason. At least you seem to be recognizing that it exists. Yes, as a major social entity rather than a few nutjobs, that culture is pretty much unique to the US. > [@](#): > > Seriously, subtract gang and drug related gun violence and the rest of society has very little problem with guns. There’s also the domestic violence problem, and the uncontrolled-anger problem, and the suicide problem, and the damn-idiot problem in all of its manifestations, all of which society most certainly does have a problem with. But yes, except for the gun problem, we don’t have a gun problem. 😉 > [@](#): > > And conversely, do you really think that an entire barbaric alternate sub-culture, which has virtually seceeded from civilization as we know it, can be effectively disarmed? I think we all know that very few of the self-styled militia types would dare to risk their own precious hides if they found themselves up against a law enforcement operation of any size. They certainly wouldn’t have the self-discipline to start to join forces and “well-regulate” themselves. Nobody came to help at Ruby Ridge or Waco, did they? Nobody. Besides, if they really are “law-abiding citizens” as they stereotypically claim to be, then they can be expected to abide the law, right? Or are you telling us otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2850 "2013-09-03T23:44:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nobody came to help at Ruby Ridge or Waco, did they? Apparently all the whacko-helping-whacko religious pedophile gun-toting troglodyte crime supporters were busy that day. Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2851 "2013-09-04T00:12:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Who wants to? The goal is to make our own country a better, safer, more decent place to live. Are you opposed to that? No, but banning guns will work about as well as banning alcohol did; the effort isn’t merely useless but actually counter-productive. > [@](#): > > At least you seem to be recognizing that it exists. Yes, as a major social entity rather than a few nutjobs, that culture is pretty much unique to the US. I guess I didn’t add enough quotes marks and :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > There’s also the domestic violence problem, and the uncontrolled-anger problem, and the suicide problem, and the damn-idiot problem in all of its manifestations, all of which society most certainly does have a problem with. But yes, except for the gun problem, we don’t have a gun problem. 😉 Meaning what? That if one person per decade in the entire United States dies from misuse of a gun, they ought to be banned? Because OF COURSE no one “”“”“needs”“”“” a gun. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I think we all know that very few of the self-styled militia types would dare to risk their own precious hides if they found themselves up against a law enforcement operation of any size. They certainly wouldn’t have the self-discipline to start to join forces and “well-regulate” themselves. Nobody came to help at Ruby Ridge or Waco, did they? Nobody. Besides, if they really are “law-abiding citizens” as they stereotypically claim to be, then they can be expected to abide the law, right? Or are you telling us otherwise? Have you sunk to being a troll, or are you really that obtuse? I was referring to the inner-city “street” culture, not the pro-gun culture you seem to fear and loath so much. Do you actually think **worse** of them than gang member and drug dealers? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2852 "2013-09-04T02:54:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No, but banning guns will work about as well as banning alcohol did; the effort isn’t merely useless but actually counter-productive. That has not been the experience everywhere else it’s been tried. Why are you sure of the opposite result here? You’re asserting your ideology, not data. > [@](#): > > Meaning what? That if one person per decade in the entire United States dies from misuse of a gun, they ought to be banned? Because OF COURSE no one “”“”“needs”“”“” a gun. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Haven’t you run out of straw yet? The more net lives saved, the better. That’s basic morality. But you don’t quite get that. All you know is how good that shaft feels in your hand, right? > [@](#): > > Have you sunk to being a troll, or are you really that obtuse? I was referring to the inner-city “street” culture, not the pro-gun culture you seem to fear and loath so much. _If only_ that were all of the problem. If only. But it’s only a small fraction of is, as you’ve been shown repeatedly in this thread (btw, thanks for your efforts, **Hentor** ). But you \*know \*it isn’t so, even though indulging in yahoo racism (“inner-city street culture” indeed - who do you think you’re fooling? :rolleyes:) instead of confronting the real problem is obviously another thing that makes you feel good. > [@](#): > > Do you actually think **worse** of them than gang member and drug dealers? Killers are killers. Even when they’ve been “law-abiding citizens” up to that point. What difference does it make to the dead? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2853 "2013-09-04T03:05:26Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Apparently all the whacko-helping-whacko religious pedophile gun-toting troglodyte crime supporters were busy that day. > > Ya think? No, using those examples was just to show how the people spouting about militias and resisting tyranny and “Second Amendment solutions” are pretty much all a bunch of damn cowards, full of bluster that makes them feel self-righteous and important, but who still know how hollow they are. We’ve even got people in the last few pages of this very thread telling us how punching a few holes in a piece of paper down at the range constitutes “well-regulating” themselves for participation in a militia, whose orders they’d follow if they felt like it. 😛 Come on, guys. You’re not fooling anyone. You’re a bunch of fucking loudmouth cowards. The feeling of courage you get by hauling around a device intended to kill other people is an illusion. If you had any real courage, you wouldn’t need it. If you gave a shit about the world you live in, or even about anybody but your own damn self, you wouldn’t invent these fears about it that you use to justify doing something that makes you feel adequate, but really only makes you a fucking menace. It’s time to grow up. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2854 "2013-09-04T03:30:22Z")
I wish I could buy you a tall cold one. You are my hero. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2855 "2013-09-04T05:23:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Name almost any fucking other one anywhere. The UK and Australia are good ones, for instance. Surely you’re not going to tell us how they’re groaning under the crush of tyranny, helpless without their ability to fight back against the government jackboots, are you? Oh wait, you _are_? Or some of your allies are going to? _Really_? 😛 > > You’re \*really \*having trouble grasping that the US’s laws, and the size of its gun-fetish culture, are on the extreme howling nutbag end of the spectrum, aren’t you? So in other words, you’re officially an idiot–I’ve proposed Germany’s laws as a starting point (although I’m very skeptical of their “need”-based rationale in general, I’m very on board with requiring secure storage and showing “need” for more than a few guns, and licensing/training mandatory) in _this very damn discussion_. TO YOU. > [@Zeriel in post 2739](#): > > [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] > You are oblivious to the other side of the issue - that the person needed to be defended \*against \*might well be _you_. I’m not oblivious to it at all. It’s most certainly a tradeoff between “if I have a gun I can threaten someone else” and “if I don’t have a gun I can’t effectively defend myself against a gun wielder”. If I was, I wouldn’t… > [@](#): > > But there’s another approach, one that virtually every other civilized society in the world uses, and which has demonstrable results in every one. …call for gun use policies much closer to, say, Germany or Scandinavia (licensed owners, registered weapons, required training). [/quote] You seriously just accused me of being against a position I’ve taken in the same thread while addressing you, and _I’m_ the one with a problem grasping things? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2856 "2013-09-04T05:31:20Z")
Hell, if you took Germany’s laws and removed the “need” section from the issuance of carry permits (while keeping everything else, including the mandatory training and “personal adequacy” judgement call), I’d take it. Provided that judgement call couldn’t be used as a de-facto gun ban, but that’s one of the major problems politically with gun control–there are a lot of places where “may issue” IS used that way as the local political winds blow one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2857 "2013-09-04T11:16:42Z")
Thanks, **crucible**. 🙂 **Zeriel** , it ain’t all about you, now is it? There’s more than one gun fetishist in this thread alone, and a helluva lot more out here in the real world. Get over it. Now: Show me where I’ve accused your precious hurt little butt of anything nonfactual. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2858 "2013-09-04T11:23:45Z")
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable starting position to me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2859 "2013-09-04T12:02:06Z")
You do have to start somewhere, yes. But as long as more people are dying than being saved, you’re still only discussing the \*degree \*of barbarity, not its presence. And as long as there’s no willingness to work for starting somewhere, then any such position can be dismissed as self-soothing blowhardism. What’s \*unreasonable \*about having to show you \*need \*a weapon of personal destruction? Is it the fear of government jackboots asserting tyranny that’s in play with that fear, or the fear of encountering The Other in some other form, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/2860 "2013-09-04T13:04:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That has not been the experience everywhere else it’s been tried. Why are you sure of the opposite result here? You’re asserting your ideology, not data. Gun bans have been successful in countries with already low crime rates; IOW, gun bans only work where they’re predisposed to work. I reiterate my starting position: you can’t make a violent country peaceful by an (attempted) ban on weapons. > [@](#): > > Haven’t you run out of straw yet? > The more net lives saved, the better. That’s basic morality. But you don’t quite get that. All you know is how good that shaft feels in your hand, right? Having fewer unarmed victims would save more lives. But you don’t care about that. > [@](#): > > _If only_ that were all of the problem. If only. But it’s only a small fraction of is, as you’ve been shown repeatedly in this thread (btw, thanks for your efforts, **Hentor** ). But you \*know \*it isn’t so, even though indulging in yahoo racism (“inner-city street culture” indeed - who do you think you’re fooling? :rolleyes:) instead of confronting the real problem is obviously another thing that makes you feel good. It’s not my fault that white gangs have gone out of style (see _When Gangs Were White_ by Anders Walker). I said “inner-city street culture” because that’s what I was opposing, regardless of the ethnicity of those participating in it. > [@](#): > > Killers are killers. Even when they’ve been “law-abiding citizens” up to that point. What difference does it make to the dead? Even the most rabid, paranoid, “we’ve got to prepare for Obama’s U.N. Islamic-Communist invasion”, camo-wearing, gun and ammo stockpiling preppers kill and assault surprisingly few people. They mainly want to be left alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=144)