# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 190
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3781 "2014-01-21T08:53:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > was saying (and anyone with half a brain would have realized it) that **we shouldn’t start making up new criminal rules for guns**. We already have rules in place for unintentional homicide or negligent homicide Why not? I mean, what’s the downside you’re afraid of from more gun-related legislation? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3782 "2014-01-21T12:00:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > (Elvis is like the absolute zero of stupid so its really hard to actually get there, you can really only approach it) 😃 > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why not? I mean, what’s the downside you’re afraid of from more gun-related legislation? That once we have “reasonable” universal registration in place, the people who have publicly declared for years that their eventual goal is banning the private possession of firearms will have the means in place, as was the case in Britain and Australia. Surprise sucka! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3783 "2014-01-21T12:38:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > That once we have “reasonable” universal registration in place, the people who have publicly declared for years that their eventual goal is banning the private possession of firearms will have the means in place, as was the case in Britain and Australia. Surprise sucka! If we were inclined to subvert the Constitution to seize their guns, we certainly don’t need registration to find them. We just seize the membership records from the NRA; they have already collected everything we need to target the most virulent gun fellaters. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3784 "2014-01-21T14:58:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If we were inclined to subvert the Constitution to seize their guns, we certainly don’t need registration to find them. We just seize the membership records from the NRA; they have already collected everything we need to target the most virulent gun fellaters. That succinctly addresses my opinion of the fears of the average gun nut. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3785 "2014-01-21T15:32:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If we were inclined to subvert the Constitution to seize their guns, we certainly don’t need registration to find them. We just seize the membership records from the NRA; they have already collected everything we need to target the most virulent gun fellaters. At least now the anti-gun folks admit that there **is** a Constitutional right. Prior to Heller, that side of the argument refused to admit that (focusing instead on the National Guard, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3786 "2014-01-21T17:33:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was saying (and anyone with half a brain would have realized it) that we shouldn’t start making up new criminal rules for guns. We already have rules in place for unintentional homicide or negligent homicide. You do realize we were talking about new rules for criminal liability right? Obviously, numbnuts. I am saying that our existing rules for unintentional homicide and criminal liability are wrong and need to be changed when discussing objects that are easily portable, easily negligently stored, and whose sole purpose is to be more deadly than other objects. > [@](#): > > When you looked stupid … Facts not in evidence, much like your outlandish propaganda-driven claims about the rate of defensive gun use. > [@](#): > > And not because you think we should subject gun owners to more rules but because you think that we should subject gun owners to more liability than the centuries old rules governing unintentional murder would allow. Exactly. The current laws are wrong, because the current laws do not address the profound ease with which people who are not supposed to have firearms (by existing law) are acquiring them from people who do have them and are grossly, criminally negligent with their storage. I’m sorry, but what point are you actually trying to defend here? Do you think we all have a god-given right to leave loaded firearms lying around within reach of toddlers? Do you not keep your guns secured? I recognize this is kind of cliche, but what on earth are you actually afraid of? I have an inquisitive three-year-old, and I am not afraid of this proposed increase in criminal liability for recklessly negligent gun storage, because I don’t store my guns negligently (and yet, if I were of a mind to, I could EASILY, with an investment less than the cost of my pistol, store said pistol loaded and cocked in a place as easy to access as my bedside table that the kid could STILL not get at it). There is no excuse whatsoever for allowing a firearm you own to cause a death that you were not intending, so I argue that leaving loaded guns unsecured is tantamount to intent to cause a death. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3787 "2014-01-21T19:09:28Z")
Any conversation about strict liability is meaningless unless everyone knows exactly what your talking about. Your example of a toddler blowing his/her head off with loaded glock sitting on coffe table is one thing, having your gun safe stolen from you home and getting a knock on your door 5-10 years later from law enforcement because your guns killed someone else is quite another. Control advocates like to say things like “reasonable gun control” then introduce assault weapons bans which are complete nonsense. Don’t be surprised when nobody takes you at face value when you start talking about gun liability. The other side can smell you incrementalism a mile away. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3788 "2014-01-21T19:16:05Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > The other side can smell you incrementalism a mile away. There is no rational way to incrementalize your way from registration to gun seizure without complete overthrow of the the Constitution. That just isn’t going to happen, and those who pose that outcome simply aren’t living in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3789 "2014-01-21T19:19:28Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why not? I mean, what’s the downside you’re afraid of from more gun-related legislation? What is the downside of revamping our centuries old criminal justice system to placate the irrational fears of a minority of the population? Are you kidding? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If we were inclined to subvert the Constitution to seize their guns, we certainly don’t need registration to find them. We just seize the membership records from the NRA; they have already collected everything we need to target the most virulent gun fellaters. You seem obsessed with fellatio but to each his own. The NRA is not where the fringiest element of the gun rights side reside. And if we were inclined to subvert the constitution to seize guns at the federal level, the country would be unrecognizable anyway. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Obviously, numbnuts. I am saying that our existing rules for unintentional homicide and criminal liability are wrong and need to be changed when discussing objects that are easily portable, easily negligently stored, and whose sole purpose is to be more deadly than other objects. Right, because the example you gave was fencing for pools not charging people who fail to fence with intentional homicide. Your ideas are stupid, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but when you started talking about your theories and then shifting them to adjust to criticism, I should have known, you were talking out of your ass. > [@](#): > > Facts not in evidence, much like your outlandish propaganda-driven claims about the rate of defensive gun use. So you never proposed first degree murder charges for unintentional murder? Then when I pointed out that you were effectively proposing the death penalty for unintentional murder, you didn’t dial it back to second degree murder? Now I point out that we have had third degree murder almost as long as we have had criminal laws, you are trying to say that we have been wrong for centuries and that there really isn’t a reason to distinguish between unintentional homicide and intentional murder? > [@](#): > > Exactly. The current laws are wrong, because the current laws do not address the profound ease with which people who are not supposed to have firearms (by existing law) are acquiring them from people who do have them and are grossly, criminally negligent with their storage. Right. Because centuries of jurisprudence has never had to deal with things like guns before, guns are a recent invention like the iphone. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but what point are you actually trying to defend here? Do you think we all have a god-given right to leave loaded firearms lying around within reach of toddlers? Yeah we already have a crime for that, you want to throw murder 2 on top of that. > [@](#): > > Do you not keep your guns secured? I recognize this is kind of cliche, but what on earth are you actually afraid of? I have an inquisitive three-year-old, and I am not afraid of this proposed increase in criminal liability for recklessly negligent gun storage, because I don’t store my guns negligently (and yet, if I were of a mind to, I could EASILY, with an investment less than the cost of my pistol, store said pistol loaded and cocked in a place as easy to access as my bedside table that the kid could STILL not get at it). There is no excuse whatsoever for allowing a firearm you own to cause a death that you were not intending, so I argue that leaving loaded guns unsecured is tantamount to intent to cause a death. And you would be wrong under almost every criminal legal theory we have in this country. What you have is what is commonly referred to as an uninformed opinion. I am not afraid that this singular and unique criminal liability that you wan to impose will be imposed on me. I simply take offense to the notion that we need to create a heightened criminal liability for a set of circumstances that are already dealt with under current law. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3790 "2014-01-21T20:21:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There is no rational way to incrementalize your way from registration to gun seizure without complete overthrow of the the Constitution. That just isn’t going to happen, and those who pose that outcome simply aren’t living in reality. I wasn’t specifically making the registration –\> seizure argument, at least not in my last post. But I totally agree with you, just not for any of the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3791 "2014-01-21T20:32:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What is the downside of revamping our centuries old criminal justice system to placate the irrational fears of a minority of the population? Are you kidding? How frequent would random, senseless gun killings have to be for you to think that fear of them was not irrational? :rolleyes: You’re a sick, sick person. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3792 "2014-01-21T21:22:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How frequent would random, senseless gun killings have to be for you to think that fear of them was not irrational? :rolleyes: > > You’re a sick, sick person. Fear of guns is rational. The manifestation of your fear of guns is irrational. How many people do you think are murdered by random gun violence every year? If you eliminated criminals and gang members from the equation, how many gun murders do you think there are? Or are you trying to say that if we could save even one life we should ignore all other factors and ban guns? You’re a stupid, stupid person. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3793 "2014-01-21T21:38:40Z")
I love that Dumuri Ajashole started off by characterizing himself as somewhat in the middle on the gun rights debate, but ends up showing kinship with Kable and calling Zeriel a half a tard. Add in the hoplophobia bullshit, and his lack of perspective is pretty clear. Dude, you’re about as moderate as Ted Nugent on this issue. Dumbfuck. ETA: I agree that in this debate one side is driven by a fear of big black scary things, but it ain’t guns and it ain’t the gun control advocates. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3794 "2014-01-21T22:32:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Fear of guns is rational. Then you might stop claiming otherwise, hmm? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The manifestation of your fear of guns is irrational. That isn’t even coherent. Again, the thing we want to reduce is deaths. Fear of death is, for a non-psychopath, very rational and normal. > [@](#): > > How many people do you think are murdered by random gun violence every year? In the US alone, in the tens of thousands. Now, how many more would make you think it’s a problem, not something to be irrationally feared? > [@](#): > > You’re a stupid, stupid person. Perhaps. But I’m sane. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3795 "2014-01-22T02:58:53Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Any conversation about strict liability is meaningless unless everyone knows exactly what your talking about. Your example of a toddler blowing his/her head off with loaded glock sitting on coffe table is one thing, having your gun safe stolen from you home and getting a knock on your door 5-10 years later from law enforcement because your guns killed someone else is quite another. I’ve specified elsewhere that it is in fact strict liability based on actual negligence. “I had a quality gun safe, and reported thefts within 24 hours of my own knowledge of same” would be affirmative defenses to any civil or criminal liability for your guns’ involvement in bad shit. > [@](#): > > Control advocates like to say things like “reasonable gun control” then introduce assault weapons bans which are complete nonsense. Interestingly, I’ve elsewhere on the Dope proposed a reasonable (by which I have specified I mean “No more onerous or pricey than a CDL”) licensing and training structure to be implemented to re-open legal civilian manufacture and purchasing of fully automatic weapons. > [@](#): > > Don’t be surprised when nobody takes you at face value when you start talking about gun liability. The other side can smell you incrementalism a mile away. That’s pretty funny, Bruce. How are your parents? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3796 "2014-01-22T03:02:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you never proposed first degree murder charges for unintentional murder? > > Then when I pointed out that you were effectively proposing the death penalty for unintentional murder, you didn’t dial it back to second degree murder? My state doesn’t have a distinction between degrees of murder, FYI, so I didn’t “dial it back” so much as “not really care about the distinction”. > [@](#): > > Now I point out that we have had third degree murder almost as long as we have had criminal laws, you are trying to say that we have been wrong for centuries and that there really isn’t a reason to distinguish between unintentional homicide and intentional murder? Yes. We’ve been wrong for centuries on other issues, from slavery to gay rights, after all. > [@](#): > > And you would be wrong under almost every criminal legal theory we have in this country. What you have is what is commonly referred to as an uninformed opinion. You are apparently, given your repeated insistence that I’m “wrong”, unclear on the difference between “I am describing the system as it is” and “I am describing the system as I want it to be.” This does not surprise me, given your ongoing general lack of both intelligence and reading comprehension on the subject of this thread. > [@](#): > > I am not afraid that this singular and unique criminal liability that you wan to impose will be imposed on me. I simply take offense to the notion that we need to create a heightened criminal liability for a set of circumstances that are already dealt with under current law. Well, your offense is noted. And wrong–it is not adequately dealt with under current law. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3797 "2014-01-22T03:03:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > ETA: I agree that in this debate one side is driven by a fear of big black scary things, but it ain’t guns and it ain’t the gun control advocates. More true than most gun advocates would like to admit about a very vocal subset of gun advocates. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3798 "2014-01-22T03:13:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you eliminated criminals and gang members from the equation, how many gun murders do you think there are? Or are you trying to say that if we could save even one life we should ignore all other factors and ban guns? Out of curiosity, I looked up some stats. There aren’t any particularly good ones (not good enough to cite, anyway), but it seems like around 20% of gun deaths involve a non-criminal victim. That’s enough, to me, to look at the issue. All of which is vastly outweighed by gun suicides, which compromise ~65% of gun deaths, and which it is not irrational to be concerned about (even if I personally am unconcerned about it). ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3799 "2014-01-22T06:38:36Z")
“A San Francisco Bay transit officer was accidentally shot and killed by a colleague Tuesday as they searched a suspect’s apartment to serve a warrant, officials said.” [http://www.freep.com/usatoday/article/4737493](http://www.freep.com/usatoday/article/4737493) One officer’s gun discharged accidentally. ?? How do guns discharge accidentally, unless someone pulls the trigger? I though modern guns had safety mechanisms to prevent this. A better article: [http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-officer-shot-in-Dublin-5163548.php](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-officer-shot-in-Dublin-5163548.php) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/3800 "2014-01-22T06:40:44Z")
Guns don’t kill people, oh wait. Yes they do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=189) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=191)