# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 258
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5141 "2015-07-16T14:08:58Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Why do the gun control advocates on this board always scorn people who choose to carry? Let’s say purely for the sake of argument that gun carriers are motivated by paranoid fear (and I deny it). So what? What skin is it off your nose if they carry? If there was an epidemic of permit holders committing rage or panic shootings, then you’d have a case. All I can see is that your hatred of people who lawfully carry is because they’re getting in the way of the crusade to ban guns. For one, it is often literally skin off of other people’s noses, or arms, or legs - there were 16,864 non-fatal unintentional firearms injuries in the US in 2013. People should be free to go to church or the store and not be injuried because someone dropped their fear-reducing amulet on the floor. This doesn’t even include accidental shootings that do not involve injuries - where someone has a bullet go through their house or is fortunate to not be struck by an accidental discharge at Walmart. I think the more fundamental problem though is the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITION that gun fucks show towards doing anything to reduce the problems associated with gun carrying. In fact, I am confident that you or your ilk are attempting right now to refute or disregard the nonfatal injury stat above, rather than say something reasonable like that’s a problem we should do something about. So, bottom line: the evidence is clear and compelling (to rational people not engaged in motivated reading) that guns are a net harm. Salving your crippling fear is not worth increasing the risk to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5142 "2015-07-16T14:15:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think the more fundamental problem though is the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITION that gun fucks show towards doing anything to reduce the problems associated with gun carrying. Whoa, slow down there, dude. Define gun fuck. I own guns, and I want to work towards reducing gun deaths. Am I a gun fuck? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5143 "2015-07-16T14:18:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Hang on, I’ll dig up some cites. [Conviction rates per year, Texas.](https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5144 "2015-07-16T14:28:39Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Whoa, slow down there, dude. Define gun fuck. > > I own guns, and I want to work towards reducing gun deaths. Am I a gun fuck? In general, you seem like a gun fuck. But let’s see. Let’s not restrict it to gun deaths, shall we. How do you propose reducing harmful gun incidents (injuries, deaths and non-injurious harm to others)? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5145 "2015-07-16T14:30:33Z")
Define gun fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5146 "2015-07-16T14:34:18Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Conviction rates per year, Texas.](https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm) As I expected, those documents include mostly crimes not involving guns. Find stats on gun-related crimes only, and break them down in rates per capita among permittees and non-permittees. That is the only way to tell if permittees have high rates of misusing their guns. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5147 "2015-07-16T14:36:18Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Define gun fuck. A gun fuck is someone who proclaims to be interested in reducing gun injuries, but who, when asked how they propose reducing gun injuries, focuses instead on defining what a gun fuck is. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5148 "2015-07-16T14:37:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Conviction rates per year, Texas.](https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm) I’m no statistician, but that seems like a completely pointless way to produce numbers. Let’s pick one, sexual assault of a child in 2013. 693 total convictions, only 20 of which were by CHL holders. They even put a percentage on there, 2.886%! Seems small, until you go elsewhere on the internet to find that [CHL holders make up less then 2%](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2011/mar/17/jeff-wentworth/state-sen-jeff-wentworth-says-only-2-percent-texas/) of the Texas population. Oops. In short, this cite is completely unconvincing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5149 "2015-07-16T14:57:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m no statistician, but that seems like a completely pointless way to produce numbers. Let’s pick one, sexual assault of a child in 2013. 693 total convictions, only 20 of which were by CHL holders. They even put a percentage on there, 2.886%! Seems small, until you go elsewhere on the internet to find that [CHL holders make up less then 2%](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2011/mar/17/jeff-wentworth/state-sen-jeff-wentworth-says-only-2-percent-texas/) of the Texas population. Oops. > > In short, this cite is completely unconvincing. (2013) Murder 91-0 Manslaughter 364-3 Robbery 1495-0 Place weapon prohibited 78-0 Prohibited weapon 113-0 Unlicensed carry weapon 1947-16 Unlicensed carry weapon alcohol premises 42-0 Deadly conduct(?) 887-16 Deadly conduct weapon discharge 204-1 Deadly weapon in penal institution 28-0 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5150 "2015-07-16T15:02:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Their methodology is right there in my cite: I don’t know if that is specific enough. They are basically just saying “we controlled for variables” In have seen these sort of claims before in other studies as proof that (legal access to guns)=(more murders) and all I have gotten was a correlation between guns in the home and higher murder rate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5151 "2015-07-16T15:04:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No. But I think it’s ridiculous to taser unthreatening citizens who are slow to comply with orders. And the many cops we see who shoot at innocent citizens should be disarmed and dismissed from law enforcement. > > And yes, some (but not all or even most) bigotry by cops and others is directed against the poor in general rather than blacks specifically. But the poverty rate is about three times higher among blacks than among whites, so poor==black is often an informative approximation. In fact, despite that whites outnumber blacks in America by a huge margin, _ **poor black kids now, for the very first time since records were kept, outnumber poor white kids** _: [“black children make up 4.2 million [of the 20% of U.S. children living in poverty] while white children account for 4.1 million.”](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/2015/07/16/children-poverty/30219249) I don’t think I disagree with any of that. I would add that the bad cops constitute a small minority of cops and that small minority of cops would be even smaller if the good cops didn’t let the bad cops slide on so much of the bad shit they do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5152 "2015-07-16T15:06:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why would it have rise to the level of an epidemic? How many deaths of innocent bystanders is acceptable to you? Does it matter at all that people who have permits to carry guns are not just more law abiding than the average citizen, they are more law abiding than the average cop. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5153 "2015-07-16T15:09:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So, bottom line: the evidence is clear and compelling (to rational people not engaged in motivated reading) that guns are a net harm. Salving your crippling fear is not worth increasing the risk to everyone else. The evidence is not clear except to someone who is looking to reach the conclusion you want to reach. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5154 "2015-07-16T15:09:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > (2013) > Murder 91-0 > Manslaughter 364-3 > Robbery 1495-0 > Place weapon prohibited 78-0 > Prohibited weapon 113-0 > Unlicensed carry weapon 1947-16 > Unlicensed carry weapon alcohol premises 42-0 > Deadly conduct(?) 887-16 > Deadly conduct weapon discharge 204-1 > Deadly weapon in penal institution 28-0 Raw numbers are meaningless. What are the per capita rates for permittees versus non-permittees? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5155 "2015-07-16T15:14:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The evidence is not clear except to someone who is looking to reach the conclusion you want to reach. uh huh. Like your reaction to the new study that **Fear Itself** linked to: ‘I’m ignorant of the terminology and techniques of science, so I reject the conclusions.’ Shorter Dumuri: ‘I will not respond til I get the talking points about handwaving away this study from the gun fuck community.’ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5156 "2015-07-16T15:16:10Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m no statistician, but that seems like a completely pointless way to produce numbers. Let’s pick one, sexual assault of a child in 2013. 693 total convictions, only 20 of which were by CHL holders. They even put a percentage on there, 2.886%! Seems small, until you go elsewhere on the internet to find that [CHL holders make up less then 2%](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2011/mar/17/jeff-wentworth/state-sen-jeff-wentworth-says-only-2-percent-texas/) of the Texas population. Oops. > > In short, this cite is completely unconvincing. Someone stated earlier that the overall crime rate is irrelevant because it was not gun specific enough. I would have thought that things like murder and assault with a deadly weapon would be the most relevant. The rate of those over seems to be well below the 2% rate you mention. And consistently so when you look at the various years. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5157 "2015-07-16T15:18:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Raw numbers are meaningless. What are the per capita rates for permittees versus non-permittees? The chart includes the percentage. Anything less that 1.8% is below the CCW rate. Why can’t you just look at the chart? Just numbers. No spin. No distortions. No agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5158 "2015-07-16T15:19:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Someone stated earlier that the overall crime rate is irrelevant because it was not gun specific enough. I would have thought that things like murder and assault with a deadly weapon would be the most relevant. Deadly weapons include knives, bats and swimming pools. Irrelevant when determining the relative safety of carry permits. > [@](#): > > The rate of those over seems to be well below the 2% rate you mention. Meaningless until they are indexed by per capita rates. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5159 "2015-07-16T15:21:57Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > (2013) > Murder 91-0 > Manslaughter 364-3 > Robbery 1495-0 > Place weapon prohibited 78-0 > Prohibited weapon 113-0 > Unlicensed carry weapon 1947-16 > Unlicensed carry weapon alcohol premises 42-0 > Deadly conduct(?) 887-16 > Deadly conduct weapon discharge 204-1 > Deadly weapon in penal institution 28-0 Once again, I’m not a statistician, but it occurs to me that these are raw numbers, small samples sizes, and control for no factors. Furthermore, the fact that you just dropped them out there without even bothering to find % of Texans who have a CHL (1.8%) suggests that your intent might have been to mislead. I’d bet that CHL holders tend to be at least middle class, and middle class people rarely commit robbery. Do you really think your raw numbers are compelling? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5160 "2015-07-16T15:25:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Someone stated earlier that the overall crime rate is irrelevant because it was not gun specific enough. I would have thought that things like murder and assault with a deadly weapon would be the most relevant. The rate of those over seems to be well below the 2% rate you mention. And consistently so when you look at the various years. I’ll readily grant that it’s possible that CHL holders commit fewer crimes than the population at large, but the same is probably true for Audi owners, or people with nice Moen faucets where the faucet head pulls out of the neck. Those things are great, and people with those in their kitchen probably aren’t going around committing robberies. Does that mean the Moen faucets make people less likely to commit crimes? In other words, raw numbers are meaningless, you need to control for other factors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=257) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=259)