# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/501 "2013-02-14T21:18:11Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Well I’m glad we agree. > > But the cops in that video put themselves into that situation, were well trained, _had the appropriate number of lumens_, and still managed to shoot someone accidently. > > Compare that to a homeowner who isn’t as well trained as the police and have someone (possibly) breaking into their house in the middle of the night. Your advice is that if they could just increase those lumens a bit, a tragedy could have been avoided. > > But it didn’t work in the link I submitted, did it? Those lumens didn’t do crap to save Todd Blair’s life. I think the cops in the video shot too early, you want me to excuse that? The victim was not in the dark. The lights on the cops guns didn’t help or hurt. If it had been dark and the person not bent on shooting regardless then a weapon light could most certainly help. You really don’t think so? It would have helped in my situation for sure. You guys keep talking about tiny lights, or in your case increasing the lumens “a bit.” I’m talking about increasing them a lot, from dark to lit up. Have you ever handled one of these lights in a dark room. They do a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/502 "2013-02-14T21:20:34Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > You’d need to see if the drop in gun suicides were replaced by other methods. If gun suicides went down by 10000 but suicides as a whole didn’t go down at all, then you know that all those gun suicides switched to other methods. But if total suicides also go down, then some of those gun suicides were not replaced by other methods. From the link I gave: “De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/503 "2013-02-14T21:21:55Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Have you ever handled one of these lights in a dark room. They do a lot. They give the bad guy a target to shoot at. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/504 "2013-02-14T21:24:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Suicides + accidental discharge + intentional discharge. > > Suicides count because guns make suicides much more likely to be successful. Fewer guns in homes means fewer successful suicides. Yeah, I don’t count suicides. I understand taht more guns=more successful suicides but that isn’t what keeps people are concerned about. > [@](#): > > Take Population A with guns in the house, compare it to Population B without guns, control for various factors and find out who winds up dead more often. (It’s A). You have a cite for that or are you just assuming that you are right? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/505 "2013-02-14T21:26:09Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > From the link I gave: > > “De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the **same rate** as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” It’s only the rate which changes. That’s just a percentage. If there are 10000 gun suicides and 100 hanging, then a similar 10% rate change means 9000 gun suicides and 110 hanging–a difference of 990. If gun and hanging suicides are the same, then the same rate change would mean that the handgun suicides are switching to hanging. But without knowing the details, it’s not clear if all the gun suicides switched to hanging. (I’m unable to view that [32] link in the wiki page, so I’m not sure what numbers they used). ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/506 "2013-02-14T21:26:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > From the link I gave: > > “De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” The gun ban was in 1996? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/507 "2013-02-14T21:27:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > They give the bad guy a target to shoot at. That’s a criticism, the pro is that in the dark they all but blind the bad guy. Also from the real life video’s from you tube it seems a lot of bad guys have knives instead of guns. Seems odd to me that you gun-grabbers are so against technology with the potential to save innocent lives. I guess that’s really not what you are all about. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/508 "2013-02-14T21:27:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > that isn’t what keeps people are concerned about. What? Your posts are very hard to parse sometimes. Anyway, I certainly count suicides. I’m still in the worst demographic for them, after all. Statistically, I’m way more likely to kill myself than to be killed by a stranger. Why would I ignore that? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/509 "2013-02-14T21:30:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > The gun ban was in 1996? Read the link. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/510 "2013-02-14T21:32:36Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Read the link. I can’t, I don’t have enough lumens. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/511 "2013-02-14T21:32:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Anyway, I certainly count suicides. I’m still in the worst demographic for them, after all. Statistically, I’m way more likely to kill myself than to be killed by a stranger. Why would I ignore that? If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn’t get a gun or a rope or belt… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/512 "2013-02-14T21:34:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn’t get a gun or a rope or belt… I keep my ropes and belts locked up in my rope and belt safe. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/513 "2013-02-14T21:34:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn’t get a gun or a rope or belt… If you think intruders are bad, maybe you shouldn’t have doors or windows… ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/514 "2013-02-14T21:37:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If you think intruders are bad, maybe you shouldn’t have doors or windows… Like I said: “Seems odd to me that you gun-grabbers are so against technology with the potential to save innocent lives. I guess that’s really not what you are all about.” ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/515 "2013-02-14T21:39:01Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I’ll have to read the paper in full and tell you what I think. I know better than to trust the abstract of a review paper. I don’t think you should bother, as you’d just have to pretend not to be able to understand what it says despite repeated explanations. Or you could just act as if you’ve never seen that cite before, no matter that you’ve already been referred to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/516 "2013-02-14T21:46:59Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I don’t think you should bother, as you’d just have to pretend not to be able to understand what it says despite repeated explanations. Or you could just act as if you’ve never seen that cite before, no matter that you’ve already been referred to it. Dave I’m not sure why you would say that now. I have a private message from you saying you liked my approach to the Kellerman study you often reference, but only I read. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/517 "2013-02-14T22:01:07Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Dave I’m not sure why you would say that now. I have a private message from you saying you liked my approach to the Kellerman study you often reference, but only I read. I was impressed-- at first-- with your approach to Kellerman, which appeared to be surprisingly open-minded for someone who is clearly an advocate of sanctioned firearms homicide. That was before you started asking me to explain, repeatedly, things I’d already quoted to you and that were covered, plainly and at some length, within the article. I decided that you were being disingenuous. To be as stupid as you pretended I doubt you could operate a computer or mobile device. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/518 "2013-02-14T22:06:02Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I was impressed-- at first-- with your approach to Kellerman, which appeared to be surprisingly open-minded for someone who is clearly an advocate of sanctioned firearms homicide. That was before you started asking me to explain, repeatedly, things I’d already quoted to you and that were covered, plainly and at some length, within the article. I decided that you were being disingenuous. To be as stupid as you pretended I doubt you could operate a computer or mobile device. Stupid? What you mean those questions you admitted in your PM to me that you couldn’t answer? Yeah, I thought I would ask them again, to give you the chance to admit IN PUBLIC you couldn’t answer them. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/519 "2013-02-14T22:12:12Z")
This thread is becoming “Stupid gun apologist of the month” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/520 "2013-02-14T23:24:05Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This thread is becoming “Stupid gun apologist of the month” Come on, you can do better than that!😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=27)