# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 262
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5221 "2015-07-17T23:27:07Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s just that this would require a registration process. This seems to be a nonstarter with the NRA and their devotees. Or at least the nutters who post on the internet on this topic. > > I am heartened to hear such strong advocacy for accountability. That’s the beauty of it: it would be entirely in line with the Founding Father’s vision of an armed populace, and technically there would be no list of people with guns- just a list of people without. 😉 I’ve always said that if you fear the irresponsible use of firearms, then maybe the answer is more responsibility, not fewer guns. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5222 "2015-07-18T01:30:02Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’ve always said that if you fear the irresponsible use of firearms, then maybe the answer is more responsibility, not fewer guns. I’m all in favor of responsible gun ownership. If a child gets ahold of someone’s gun and hurts themselves or others, the gun owner is held responsible. If someone’s gun is stolen and used in a crime, the gun owner is held responsible. Yes, responsible gun ownership is the way to go, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5223 "2015-07-20T15:13:35Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > I would agree to this. A gun is a powerful and potentially dangerous tool. Owners need to show proficiency in safely handling them, to include managing emotions and adrenaline in potentially unsafe tactical situations, the decision to deploy your rifle/pistol (it is NOT a gun!) or not, and then how to control it when under stress. We can all hit black on paper in tight groups on the range (well, some in the classes were all over the place - scary), but under stress and when your heart is pumping, will you act and react appropriately? > > I, for one, hope I never have to find out. > > And the California HSC, Handgun Safety Certificate, for example, is a joke. I’ve taken CCW classes in NV, FL and TX, and there are wide variances in training and proficiency standards. The instructors do a good job and they are sincere, but the requirements they train to are not sufficient. IMO, anyway. > > These will not eliminate accidental deaths by shooting but I believe they would result in dramatic improvement. There will never be zero deaths, unfortunately. I am all for improving safety and proficiency but only as long as it isn’t a back door way of restricting access. The standards must be easily achieved by virtually anyone. We should try to prevent accidental shooting fatalities but I am more concerned with the deliberate shooting fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5224 "2015-07-20T15:22:13Z")
If you’re concerned with deliberate shooting fatalities, as you claim, doesn’t it necessarily follow that there are people who should not have guns? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5225 "2015-07-20T15:24:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > @Dumuri: it would be shorter if you just wrote, “I do not understand stats.” The third variable problem as about as basic as it gets. You clearly don’t grasp it; there’s no way you’ll understand anything more complicated. > > By the way, controlling for a third variable doesn’t increase variability, dummy. Imagine the whole population and think about the variability in height. Now introduce a new variable: gender. Have I increased the variability in height? Fucking imbecile. The simple fact of the matter is that you don’t like the fact that CHL holders are more law abiding than the general population and you what that implies because so much of your position on this topic revolves around legal gun owners being villains. If the CHL pudgy white subrbanites are actually more dangerous than their nonCHL counterparts then why haven’t we seen increases in gun murders as states started issuing CHL? You put up supposition as fact while pretending that correlation=causation when it suits your purposes. Its true I am not a statistician but I am sure I can understand anything that is competently explained. If you are a statistician then you have no respect for your own profession. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5226 "2015-07-20T15:29:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’m all in favor of responsible gun ownership. If a child gets ahold of someone’s gun and hurts themselves or others, the gun owner is held responsible. Frequently they are. In gun loving states no less. If the child is old enough to defeat a lock then not so much. > [@](#): > > If someone’s gun is stolen and used in a crime, the gun owner is held responsible. Yes, responsible gun ownership is the way to go, don’t you think? If someone steals your car and drives into a crowd of widowed orphans then that’s your responsibility too? We almost never hold Person A liable for the crimes of Person B unless Person A was committing a crime as well. I could see holding a gun runner liable for any murders committed by the guns sold to fellow criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5227 "2015-07-20T15:30:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re concerned with deliberate shooting fatalities, as you claim, doesn’t it necessarily follow that there are people who should not have guns? :dubious: Yes, they are called Prohibited Persons: > **[National Instant Criminal Background Check System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Prohibited_persons)** > > The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is a background check system in the United States created by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 to prevent firearm sales to people prohibited under the Act. The system was launched by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 1998. Under the system, firearm dealers, manufacturers or importers who hold a Federal Firearms License (FFL) are required to undertake a NICS background check on prospective buyers before tran... ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5228 "2015-07-20T15:31:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am all for improving safety and proficiency but only as long as it isn’t a back door way of restricting access. The standards must be easily achieved by virtually anyone. That’s akin to saying that if you have a pulse, you can own a firearm. Do you really want your next door neighbors, and the people across the street, if they are people who have little regard for other people, are inconsiderate and sloppy and not careful with how they operate their weedwhacker (so, okay, they might injure themselves with that), do you really want such morons all owning firearms? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5229 "2015-07-20T15:42:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, they are called Prohibited Persons: > > [National Instant Criminal Background Check System - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Prohibited_persons) Evading the question. How is it that you refuse to restrict ownership in any way, if you do indeed want to limit gun murders? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5230 "2015-07-20T17:32:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re concerned with deliberate shooting fatalities, as you claim, doesn’t it necessarily follow that there are people who should not have guns? :dubious: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, they are called Prohibited Persons: > > [National Instant Criminal Background Check System - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Prohibited_persons) > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Evading the question. How is it that you refuse to restrict ownership in any way, if you do indeed want to limit gun murders? :dubious: I thought he answered the question; there are indeed laws forbidding obviously untrustworthy people from having guns. Now are you saying that there are too many shootings so obviously the prohibited category needs to be expanded? If so, by what standard? The one you keep proposing- “nobody except police and soldiers should have guns”- has been repeatedly rejected by the voting public. Short of a _Minority Report_ standard of infallibility, how do you guess who might misuse a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5231 "2015-07-20T17:43:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I thought he answered the question; there are indeed laws forbidding obviously untrustworthy people from having guns. Now are you saying that there are too many shootings so obviously the prohibited category needs to be expanded? If so, by what standard? The one you keep proposing- “nobody except police and soldiers should have guns”- has been repeatedly rejected by the voting public. Short of a _Minority Report_ standard of infallibility, how do you guess who might misuse a gun? Perhaps people that have been diagnosed by a doctor with PTSD, but are on a long waiting list to receive help. Like my nephew Christopher, who couldn’t get the help he needed after the military diagnosed him them discharged him, but who had no trouble getting a gun. He self-treated his PTSD on June 3oth. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5232 "2015-07-20T17:47:12Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I thought he answered the question; there are indeed laws forbidding obviously untrustworthy people from having guns. I was asking how that is consistent with his claim that “The standards must be easily achieved by virtually anyone.” > [@](#): > > Now are you saying that there are too many shootings so obviously the prohibited category needs to be expanded? If so, by what standard? I’m asking YOU what YOUR standards are. It seems to depend on who’s asking. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5233 "2015-07-20T18:04:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > I’m all in favor of responsible gun ownership. If a child gets ahold of someone’s gun and hurts themselves or others, the gun owner is held responsible. If someone’s gun is stolen and used in a crime, the gun owner is held responsible. Yes, responsible gun ownership is the way to go, don’t you think? > > If someone steals your car and drives into a crowd of widowed orphans then that’s your responsibility too? > > We almost never hold Person A liable for the crimes of Person B unless Person A was committing a crime as well. I could see holding a gun runner liable for any murders committed by the guns sold to fellow criminals. It doesn’t work that way. You have to follow the causal chain back to the beginning. If someone robs a bank and uses the money to purchase a gun from one of his gang buddies it’s the fault of the bank. Or the federal government for having printed the money in the first place. If the government hadn’t printed the money, it couldn’t have been stolen from the bank. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5234 "2015-07-20T18:52:44Z")
And that’s the sort of post that leads readers to think you don’t even know what responsibility even is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5235 "2015-07-20T19:21:37Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > That’s akin to saying that if you have a pulse, you can own a firearm. Do you really want your next door neighbors, and the people across the street, if they are people who have little regard for other people, are inconsiderate and sloppy and not careful with how they operate their weedwhacker (so, okay, they might injure themselves with that), do you really want such morons all owning firearms? Its not a matter of what I want. What I want is for me to own all the weapons and for no one else to have any. What I think the constitution demands (at a minimum) is that everyone have reasonable access to guns unless there is some particular reason to disqualify them. I think reasonable access can include a written and practical safety test. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5236 "2015-07-20T19:24:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Evading the question. How is it that you refuse to restrict ownership in any way, if you do indeed want to limit gun murders? :dubious: WTF? You asked if I was willing to restrict ownership and I show you a list of people that cannot own firearms and that I agree should not be able to own firearms. Wasn’t it clear that I agree that prohibited persons should be prohibited from owning firearms? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5237 "2015-07-20T19:25:38Z")
What is clear is that you asserted “The standards must be easily achieved by virtually anyone.” With _no_ exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5238 "2015-07-20T19:30:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Perhaps people that have been diagnosed by a doctor with PTSD, but are on a long waiting list to receive help. > Like my nephew Christopher, who couldn’t get the help he needed after the military diagnosed him them discharged him, but who had no trouble getting a gun. He self-treated his PTSD on June 3oth. I agree that we should have more categories of temporarily prohibited persons (like people who are subject to restraining orders) and people who are undergoing evaluation or waiting to undergo evaluation should be in this category. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5239 "2015-07-20T19:51:54Z")
I wonder if there are enough gun owners who feel that gun ownership is a privilege and not a right? The NRA hard core members and 2nd amendment activists (extremists?) would never go for that. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5240 "2015-07-20T21:16:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I was asking how that is consistent with his claim that “The standards must be easily achieved by virtually anyone.” > > I’m asking YOU what YOUR standards are. It seems to depend on who’s asking. I’m asking you if you refuse to own a gun because you fear you would kill someone. I’ve asked you that many times without you answering. So, as I figure things, anybody you ask a question would be entirely within hir rights to just tell you to go fuck yourself. You don’t seem to get how the whole quid pro quo thing works, along with the mind boggling tonnage of other things you don’t get. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=261) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=263)