# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 282
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5621 "2015-08-14T13:28:39Z")
I’d also like to hear more about that minority of gun murders that are \*not \*committed by criminals. Can you commit a murder and somehow \*still \*be a “law-abiding citizen”? Or does the term have an alternate meaning in that alternate universe? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5622 "2015-08-14T13:33:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Almost everything you said could be applied to people who drive cars. What conceptual and legal and practical differences will you admit exist between guns and cars? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5623 "2015-08-14T14:03:51Z")
Fucking cars again! Jesus, engaging with these guys is like watching a severely amnestic, cognitively impaired monkey with a See and Say. “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5624 "2015-08-14T16:26:44Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I think the pro-choice side should be willing to give up their guns. Which is to say, this isn’t an abortion thread. The topic is guns, guns, guns. The topic in this particular post is how much someone should have to sacrifice their rights to compromise with people who don’t think the right should exist. > [@](#): > > Don’t pretend that you want suggestions from the gun control side, as if you’d consider them anything other than a front for Obama taking your guns away, or whatever outlandish delusion you can think of. Like this unbelievable gem: I have been advocating licensing (of gun owners) and registration(of all guns but particularly handguns) for years. The Manchin Toomey bill didn’t do anything meanginful, it was a fig leaf. The gun control side had lost so much political capital on the idiotic assault weapons ban that they couldn’t even get a fig leaf through congress. So the NRA decided to embarrass them by denying them their fig leaf. > [@](#): > > See what I mean? Is there _anything_ the gun control side could do that you’d accept as sincere? The Manchin-Toomey bill was proposed by Joe Manchin and Pat Toomey. I don’t think you could fairly say they are on the gun control side. > [@](#): > > If it’s impossible to eliminate all guns, why is that used as an excuse to oppose any further gun control measures? Answer me that. Because the sort of gun control measures that gun control advocates present do much to restrict law abiding citizens and do little to address gun ownership by those who are already not allowed to own guns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5625 "2015-08-14T16:58:32Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Are they? Seriously? I would like to see some firm statistics on that. As I said before, nobody is a criminal until they are. Sure, no one is born with a criminal records but most people who commit gun murders acquire a criminal record sometime between birth and when they murder someone with a gun. > **[Home](https://bjs.ojp.gov)** > > The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) is the United States' primary source for criminal justice statistics that cover a wide range of topics. I don’t know if there is anything more recent but table 7 of this 2001 report shows that there were 281K first time offenders who were caught with a gun during the commission of a crime 835K recidivists who were caught with a gun during the commission of a crime. > **[GUNS AND PUBLIC HEALTH: EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE OR PANDEMIC OF PROPAGANDA?](https://guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html)** > > Tennessee Law Review; Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?, by Don B. Kates, Henry E. Schaffer, Ph.D., John K. Lattimer, M.D., George B. Murray, M.D., Edwin H. Cassem, M.D. "Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records,[280] and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests.[281] These studies also found that when the murder occurred “[a]bout 11% of murder arrestees [were] actually on pre-trial release”–that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense.[282] The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don’t have adult records is that they are juveniles.[283] Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record. " ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5626 "2015-08-14T17:26:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’d also like to hear more about that minority of gun murders that are \*not \*committed by criminals. Can you commit a murder and somehow \*still \*be a “law-abiding citizen”? Or does the term have an alternate meaning in that alternate universe? As long as you realize that criminals account for a small minority of the population but account for a large majority of gun murders, I think my point is made. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5627 "2015-08-14T17:28:35Z")
If your point is that murder is a crime, then yes, you’ve made it. Not that anyone was arguing otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5628 "2015-08-14T17:36:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What conceptual and legal and practical differences will you admit exist between guns and cars? :dubious: There are all sots of differences between the two but when you make arguments that apply equally to both then it is up to you to explain why we shouldn’t be applying your arguments to cars. What is it about cars that makes these arguments invalid against them? AFAICT your argument is that you see the benefits of private ownership of cars in society but you cannot see the benefit of private ownership of guns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5629 "2015-08-14T17:37:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Fucking cars again! Jesus, engaging with these guys is like watching a severely amnestic, cognitively impaired monkey with a See and Say. > > “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ > > “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ > > “The car goes … _vrooom_!” _Clap, clap, clap, clap._ I’m sorry if the facts do not comport with your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5630 "2015-08-14T17:50:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If your point is that murder is a crime, then yes, you’ve made it. Not that anyone was arguing otherwise. No, my point is that all your regulation is directed at preventing the 10% of gun murders that are committed by previously law abiding citizens. If you compare the costs of private ownership of guns (that 10% minus whatever portion of that 10% that would have committed murder by other means (same with gun injuries); plus the 600 or so accidental gun deaths (minus whatever portion of those gun deaths that from illegal guns)) versus the benefits of guns (~300 justifiable homicides by private citizens; plus the aggregate effect of the defensive gun uses). This ignores the benefit to society presented by recreational gun use and people who hunt to eat. For you the result of that cost benefit analysis is very clearly in favor of getting rid of private ownership of guns. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5631 "2015-08-14T17:50:35Z")
We’ve seriously done cars like a hundred fucking times. You are intellectually challenged, aren’t you? At this point, I’ve explained relative risk at least a dozen times. Even if you can’t get it, you should recognize that nobody here will be convinced by your novel, astute observation that because cars. Or perhaps you cannot remember any of those discussions. That seems more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5632 "2015-08-14T17:53:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, my point is that all your regulation is directed at preventing the 10% of gun murders that are committed by previously law abiding citizens. If you compare the costs of private ownership of guns (that 10% minus whatever portion of that 10% that would have committed murder by other means (same with gun injuries); plus the 600 or so accidental gun deaths (minus whatever portion of those gun deaths that from illegal guns)) versus the benefits of guns (~300 justifiable homicides by private citizens; plus the aggregate effect of the defensive gun uses). This ignores the benefit to society presented by recreational gun use and people who hunt to eat. > > For you the result of that cost benefit analysis is very clearly in favor of getting rid of private ownership of guns. I disagree. About 100,000 Americans are shot every year. But you know this because we’ve done this about 1,000 times. Who the fuck do you think hasn’t heard your imbecillic rantings yet? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5633 "2015-08-14T17:54:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Almost everything you said could be applied to people who drive cars. If cars and guns are so comparable, why aren’t you whining about traffic laws encroaching on your freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5634 "2015-08-14T18:51:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have been advocating licensing (of gun owners) and registration(of all guns but particularly handguns) for years. The Manchin Toomey bill didn’t do anything meanginful, it was a fig leaf. The gun control side had lost so much political capital on the idiotic assault weapons ban that they couldn’t even get a fig leaf through congress. So the NRA decided to embarrass them by denying them their fig leaf. So fucking what if you advocate anything? The NRA would never allow it. The whole point of this futile exercise is that it doesn’t matter if you as a gun owner advocate some measure of gun control. It doesn’t matter what I advocate. As you demonstrated yourself, all that matters is what the NRA advocates and fuck everyone else. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The Manchin-Toomey bill was proposed by Joe Manchin and Pat Toomey. I don’t think you could fairly say they are on the gun control side. I see. Even proposals from gun owners aren’t taken seriously, never mind from gun control advocates. Thanks for reinforcing my point, but no thanks for ignoring the question. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because the sort of gun control measures that gun control advocates present do much to restrict law abiding citizens and do little to address gun ownership by those who are already not allowed to own guns. That’s very interesting and informative, but it doesn’t answer the question at all, which is, “How is the threat from something that’s impossible an excuse for opposing any further gun control measures?” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5635 "2015-08-14T20:28:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ~300 justifiable homicides by private citizens; plus the aggregate effect of the defensive gun uses So you finally found some numbers somewhere. Where? :dubious: > [@](#): > > when you make arguments that apply equally to both then it is up to you to explain why we shouldn’t be applying your arguments to cars. The comparison is _yours_. You are not even trying to defend it, are you? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5636 "2015-08-15T05:52:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … the benefits of guns (~300 justifiable homicides by private citizens … Do you assert that all “justifiable homicides” are “beneficial”? The killing of 100 Americans per month by LEO are almost all ruled "“justifiable homicides.” Are they all beneficial? Was the killing of Tamir Rice beneficial? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5637 "2015-08-15T16:02:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Do you assert that all “justifiable homicides” are “beneficial”? Seven Billion. Gotta do something with the excess. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5638 "2015-08-15T17:02:21Z")
Just FYI for everyone else, the idea that 90% of gun homicides are commited by people with criminal records is complete bull fucking shit. This douchebag knows that. We’ve also done this one before, many times. Repeating a false fact after being corrected is just fucking lying. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5639 "2015-08-15T17:32:43Z")
Yeah it’s more like 70 percent ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/5640 "2015-08-15T18:17:04Z")
Gunners Of The Dope, feeling a little down this morning? Got them ol’ Ninety-two-Percent-Of-Everyone-Is-Against-Me Blues? Well, let’s see if these guys will perk you up… **Feds Bust Wingnuts Who Plotted To Lure Jade Helm Troops Into Ambush** > [@](#): > > North Carolina is not one of the states where the U.S. military training exercise dubbed “Jade Helm 15” is taking place this summer. Nevertheless, three men from Gaston County were charged with conspiring to arm themselves with illegal explosive devices to combat what they saw as a potential military takeover, according to court documents unsealed Monday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte. > > … > > “I got a fucking 45 beside my bed. I got a 45 and a 9 mil in my truck. I’ve got a 9 mil and a 380 or a 380 in her car. Safe full of weapons," he said, as quoted in the affidavit. "You know what? Every time I open up this damn safe, I mean I’ve got, I’ve got at least 30 weapons that I can see and some tucked all the way in the back, back.” > > [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/litteral-barker-campbell-jade-helm](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/litteral-barker-campbell-jade-helm) The good news for “responsible” gunners is that your numbers haven’t dwindled. Because these guys didn’t shoot anyone, I believe they’re still officially classified as responsible gun owners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=281) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=283)