# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 302
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6021 "2015-10-07T23:49:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > wiki: > > _According to the FBI, in 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns_ > > I guess my figure of 5000 was from a different year or more rounding. But it’s damn close. I’m looking at [an FBI report](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls) with figures similar (but not identical) to yours, but it also has _Firearms, type not stated 1,611_ With rifles, shotguns, and “other guns” all broken out separately, it seems fair to conclude that most of the “type not stated” were handguns, no? … And the numbers are similar enough, year-to-year, that your “a different year” hypothesis is rejected. So your “5000” should actually have been “about 8000”; correct? And [here’s another government document](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm) (for 2013 instead of 2012) that states _Firearm homicides: Number of deaths: 11,208_ The FBI reports 13,000 homicides with about 9000 by firearm. CDC reports 16,000 homicides with 11,000 by firearms. It might be interesting to understand the difference. _But none of these numbers are anywhere near 5000_. But whether 5000, 8000, or 11000, what’s the difference, right? One side will characterize any of these numbers as “very rare”; the other side as “much too common.” But I get very annoyed when incorrect statistics are prattled about on message boards, hoping that no one will check. If I remember a number as “6500”, am too lazy to Google, and _the smaller the number the better it suits my case_, I’ll write “less than 7000” or “about 6500.” I won’t pull a **Sam Stone** , write “6000” and accuse the one who corrects me of being a “nit-picker.” Writing “5000” is right out. Since we’re in the Pit, I’ll just come out and say it: _ **If you don’t know a number, just stifle your impudence and shut up!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6022 "2015-10-08T00:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Blair co-authored a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant. That speaks less to tackling an armed assailant as a preferred strategy, and more to the comparative rarity of armed bystanders. If I happened to be carrying and a mass shooting occurred, I sure as hell wouldn’t forgo using my gun to try to tackle him instead. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6023 "2015-10-08T00:09:14Z")
So you think. [Professionals beg to differ.](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/its-insane-combat-veterans-shoot-down-nra-fantasy-world-of-good-guys-with-guns/) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6024 "2015-10-08T01:25:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The more guns there are, the more there will be incidents like this. It is the price you pay for your “freedom.” Good luck with that. This is a lie! If there had been a good 11 year old with a gun, they would have stopped him! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6025 "2015-10-08T02:44:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m looking at [an FBI report](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls) with figures similar (but not identical) to yours, but it also has > _Firearms, type not stated 1,611_ > With rifles, shotguns, and “other guns” all broken out separately, it seems fair to conclude that most of the “type not stated” were handguns, no? > … And the numbers are similar enough, year-to-year, that your “a different year” hypothesis is rejected. > > So your “5000” should actually have been “about 8000”; correct? And [here’s another government document](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm) (for 2013 instead of 2012) that states > _Firearm homicides: Number of deaths: 11,208_ > > The FBI reports 13,000 homicides with about 9000 by firearm. CDC reports 16,000 homicides with 11,000 by firearms. It might be interesting to understand the difference. _But none of these numbers are anywhere near 5000_. > > But whether 5000, 8000, or 11000, what’s the difference, right? One side will characterize any of these numbers as “very rare”; the other side as “much too common.” > > But I get very annoyed when incorrect statistics are prattled about on message boards, hoping that no one will check. If I remember a number as “6500”, am too lazy to Google, and _the smaller the number the better it suits my case_, I’ll write “less than 7000” or “about 6500.” I won’t pull a **Sam Stone** , write “6000” and accuse the one who corrects me of being a “nit-picker.” Writing “5000” is right out. > > Since we’re in the Pit, I’ll just come out and say it: _ **If you don’t know a number, just stifle your impudence and shut up!** _ Nope, there are zip guns, sawed off rifles, etc, all which could come into that category. Since the FBI specifically said _6,371 of those attributed to handguns_ then there’s 6371. So no, not 8000 or whatever number you were thinking of when you said “This is a very different number than my source shows.” since 6371 is hardly “very different” than “about 5000”. We’re talking how many \*\*handgun murders. \*\*Not “Firearm homicides” which includes all form of firearms. Or “11,000 by firearms”, which again includes all form of firearms. So, no none of those numbers are anywhere near 5000 since all of those numbers include other guns deaths and other types of gun murders other than by handgun. I stated “\*about \*5000 handgun murders per year.” Indeed, there’s 6,371 which to me is not far from my “about”. And, far off from whatever " very different number than my source shows." you had since you couldn’t be arsed to even come up with a estimate or a counter cite. **If you don’t know a number, just stifle your impudence and shut up!** ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6026 "2015-10-08T03:54:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, there are zip guns, sawed off rifles, etc, all which could come into that category. Since the FBI specifically said _6,371 of those attributed to handguns_ then there’s 6371. So no, not 8000 or whatever number you were thinking of when you said “This is a very different number than my source shows.” since 6371 is hardly “very different” than “about 5000”. > > We’re talking how many \*\*handgun murders. \*\*Not “Firearm homicides” which includes all form of firearms. Or “11,000 by firearms”, which again includes all form of firearms. So, no none of those numbers are anywhere near 5000 since all of those numbers include other guns deaths and other types of gun murders other than by handgun. > > I stated “\*about \*5000 handgun murders per year.” Indeed, there’s 6,371 which to me is not far from my “about”. > > And, far off from whatever " very different number than my source shows." you had since you couldn’t be arsed to even come up with a estimate or a counter cite. **If you don’t know a number, just stifle your impudence and shut up!** hey fuckface, he did cite his stats. Every estimate from every source shows that your number is bullshit. However, if you want to propose that long guns are the bulk of the problem, be my guest! The gun strokers won’t like you very much, but then again, you must be use to that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6027 "2015-10-08T06:40:36Z")
Woman pulls her gun to [shoot at an escaping shoplifter:](http://huff.to/1Gwou76) > [@](#): > > A bystander outside a Home Depot in Auburn Hills, Michigan, opened fire on a man suspected of shoplifting from the store on Tuesday as he attempted to flee the scene in an SUV driven by another man. > > Police told The Detroit News that the bystander, a woman with a license to carry a concealed pistol, shot at the getaway car’s tires after witnessing a loss prevention officer attempt to stop the suspect and fail. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6028 "2015-10-08T10:30:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Guns are protected by the Bill of Rights, and smoking isn’t. In any case, those “restrictions” are very minor. > > It’s simple- ban smoking. 100%. Which is a goalpost move. If you’re comparing smoking deaths with gun deaths in a discussion about the effectiveness of gun control, it’s perfectly reasonably to note the effect that restrictions on smoking have had. I am aware that many of the gun rights arguments boil down to: 1. I want a gun; 2. The Constitution says I can have a gun; and 3. Neener neener neener; and much of the rest is fantasy and rationalization, but that doesn’t address the fact that making access to guns more restricted would reduce gun deaths, regardless of what the Constitution says. > [@Lumpy](#): > > That speaks less to tackling an armed assailant as a preferred strategy, and more to the comparative rarity of armed bystanders. If I happened to be carrying and a mass shooting occurred, I sure as hell wouldn’t forgo using my gun to try to tackle him instead. Speaking of fantasy: I note you’re ignoring the point in the article about why the Heroic Gunslinger scenario is at odds with the reality of a real gunfight and why having amateurs fire away would likely cause more havoc, not less. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6029 "2015-10-08T11:00:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, there are zip guns, sawed off rifles, etc, all which could come into that category. Since the FBI specifically said _6,371 of those attributed to handguns_ then there’s 6371. So no, not 8000 or whatever number you were thinking of when you said “This is a very different number than my source shows.” since 6371 is hardly “very different” than “about 5000”. Wrong again, fool. Obviously you couldn’t be bothered to click my link. It would have taken you 15 seconds to see what I excerpt below (note the “other guns” category), and which renders your response imbecilic, yet instead of investing those 15 seconds to educate yourself, you spent a minute composing insults. What an arrogant, idiot, asshole. ```auto Murder Victims by Weapon, 2009-2013 Weapons 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 Total 13,752 13,164 12,795 12,888 12,253 Total firearms: 9,199 8,874 8,653 8,897 8,454 Handguns 6,501 6,115 6,251 6,404 5,782 Rifles 351 367 332 298 285 Shotguns 423 366 362 310 308 Other guns 96 93 97 116 123 Firearms, type not stated 1,828 1,933 1,611 1,769 1,956 ``` Stated simply, for simple-minded people, your “sawed-off rifles” or whatever, would show up as “other guns” (or more likely “rifles”) and not as “type not stated.” I’d guess even an imbecile could have figured that out in two seconds by glancing at the table. But not our dear **Dr Deth** , who makes up numbers, and doesn’t even know how to place the mouse cursor over a link and push a button. Thanks for helping to confirm my observation that gun nuts tend to be arrogant pretentious dolts. I suppose it’s conceivable that you _did_ click the link, but were too stupid to even understand the above table. In that case, accept my apology … and pity. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6030 "2015-10-08T12:34:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Woman pulls her gun to [shoot at an escaping shoplifter:](http://huff.to/1Gwou76) Thank god there was a good guy with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6031 "2015-10-08T12:42:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Thank god there was a good guy with a gun. A good guy with a cellphone camera to take a picture of the perp and his license plate might have been more helpful. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6032 "2015-10-08T12:55:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > [11 year old shoots 8 year](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/06/boy-11-charged-murder-girl-8/73433082/) old neighbor with his dad’s shotgun. > > Unlocked loaded gun in a closet. > > The more guns there are, the more there will be incidents like this. All too true. > [@](#): > > It is the price you pay for your “freedom.” Good luck with that. Unfortunately, no. It’s the price _someone else_ pays for the gun nuts’ freedoms. They get the freedom, someone else gets stuck with the (lethal) bill. And this is moral, how? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6033 "2015-10-08T12:57:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The kid was a known bully with a history of abusing that girl, so I’m going to go with “intentional” and I hope he gets jailed for life or longer. He’s a waste of space. And she’s just as dead, either way. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6034 "2015-10-08T13:01:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > A good guy with a cellphone camera to take a picture of the perp and his license plate might have been more helpful. That would do nothing to resolve the sense of moral outrage arising from a thief getting away. It also wouldn’t stoke our collective sense of manly efficacy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6035 "2015-10-08T13:03:49Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Thank god there was a good guy with a gun. It would have been a real riot if some other ‘good guy with a gun,’ seeing a woman shooting at a car that wasn’t visibly endangering anyone, started shooting at the woman. And then another ‘good guy with a gun’ coulda started shooting at him. OK, not funny IRL, and I hope it never happens. But the way our gun laws are going, it’s hard to believe it’s not just a matter of time. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6036 "2015-10-08T13:31:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It would have been a real riot if some other ‘good guy with a gun,’ seeing a woman shooting at a car that wasn’t visibly endangering anyone, started shooting at the woman. And then another ‘good guy with a gun’ coulda started shooting at him. > > OK, not funny IRL, and I hope it never happens. But the way our gun laws are going, it’s hard to believe it’s not just a matter of time. Some people would like to see as many citizens armed as possible. It seems inevitable that that could easily lead to the exact type of situation you’re describing. And of course she could have hit some innocent while attempting to fire at the fleeing vehicle, or caused the drive to lost control and hit somebody. I posted a news story earlier in this thread where a “good guy with a gun” came upon a carjacking in progress, fired at the carjackers, and accidentally shot the owner of the car - the victim - in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6037 "2015-10-08T14:09:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > A good guy with a cellphone camera to take a picture of the perp and his license plate might have been more helpful. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That would do nothing to resolve the sense of moral outrage arising from a thief getting away. It also wouldn’t stoke our collective sense of manly efficacy. As a fun story: a few years back my wife was riding to work on a bus. En route the bus stopped and a couple of questionable young men got on who refused to pay the fare. At the driver’s attempts to eject them, the young men dragged the driver out and punched him several times and then ran away. The police were called but the CCTV onboard was not clear enough to identify the men (which raises a separate question about why they even bother having CCTV that only registers “vague moving blobs”, but let’s not digress from this digression). However, my wife happens to have in her bag a digital camera that also took video, and she recorded the whole scene. When the police turned up she presented herself to them with camera in hand and showed them the video complete with close-ups of the perps’ faces. They transferred the video to a device of their own, said that they recognized the men in question and went off to arrest them. Justice served. Would that situation have been improved by having a gun instead of a camera? Would that be true even if the men had also had guns? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6038 "2015-10-08T14:28:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The kid was a known bully with a history of abusing that girl, so I’m going to go with “intentional” and I hope he gets jailed for life or longer. He’s a waste of space. He’s _ **11** _, fer chrissakes. A lot of kids that age still wet their pants when they’re scared. I find it difficult to believe that 11 yr old can \*appreciate \*the consequences of his actions. The kid should do time but I am not ready to write off his entire life yet. The adult who gave the kid access to the gun should do time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6039 "2015-10-08T14:32:26Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > The adult who gave the kid access to the gun should do time. I agree. Why do we never hear who owned the gun, or what happens to them? My suspicion is it is because nothing ever happens to them. “It was a tragic event, they are being punished enough” is the usual justification. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6040 "2015-10-08T15:25:28Z")
Another “law-abiding citizen” who was sure it could never happen to _him_. And another, and another … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=301) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=303)