# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 307
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6121 "2015-10-13T17:31:25Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Personally, I’d go with a counter-cite there, not a nevuhoidovit. > > Anyway, there’s an index for freedom of the press, and maybe you’ve done it the great honor of allowing its name to enter your earholes. It’s called, unimaginatively, The Press Freedom Index. Catchy, eh? If you haven’t heard of it, Wikipedia has an article for your convenience. F Meh. It’s a popularity contest. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6122 "2015-10-13T17:45:14Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > It’s all well and good saying the UK for example has a state religion, but you need to actually show how this has any actual effect. In the US, Christianity actually dominates the landscape, and effects the ruling of the country. Abortion clinics, for example. Candidates saying a Muslim shouldn’t be a president. People insulting your current president claiming he’s a Muslim. Do you see the problem here? These are actual things. I was talking about legislation, which I mentioned. This was in my prior post. I said if you are talking about attitude then you’re right. You seem unable to accept that compromise. I also mentioned that people calling Obama a Muslim does not have the force of law. If you are not reading my posts, I’ll stop replying. You are simply incorrect factually on the subject of legislation, and you are ignoring the fact that people were tried under the now-defunct (finally) Blasphemy Laws, you are ignoring my twice prior mentioned French ban on religious clothing, the bans on films and speech, good grief if you can’t be arsed to do more than Google, go to Wikipedia or something. Unless you are arguing attitude versus legislation, the onus is on you to provide the cites that the actual legislation in the US is more restrictive overall than that in your list of countries (above) with respect to religion, press, and speech. I mean, denial of the facts is one of the other things which scares the pro-gun side on here. Reasonable people can agree that there’s a difference between attitude and legislation in this debate, but instead of just admitting that you were talking about something else, you’re doubling down and trying to claim you’re right on both counts. And you have not provided a single citation when challenged on the legislation front. > [@](#): > > Seriously, try to find some cites that show how you outstrip other developed nations on these counts. The onus is on you. You made the initial claims. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6123 "2015-10-13T17:45:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except the Indian “genocide” wasn’t planned, it just was the unhappy issue of the natives not having resistance to diseases. It was bound to happen. Your education is severely lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6124 "2015-10-13T17:55:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except the Indian “genocide” wasn’t planned, it just was the unhappy issue of the natives not having resistance to diseases. It was bound to happen. Sand Creek, Pound Ridge, Gnadenhutten, Great Swamp, Fox Indian, Fort Neoheroka, Camp Grant, Wounded Knee, the Trail of Tears…these and countless other such events were all “bound to happen”? Fuck me sideways, tell me I’m being whooshed. Tell me you aren’t actually completely ignorant of the massacres, the displacement of entire tribes from their lands via death march, the attempts to wipe out the entire ethnic group through assimilation policies. Please tell me this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6125 "2015-10-13T17:56:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Your education is severely lacking. Yours is biased. The United States has not been legally admonished by the international community for genocidal acts against its indigenous population. Some acts are considered atrocities, yes, but only a few argue there was any real organized attempts at genocide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6126 "2015-10-13T17:57:59Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Sand Creek, Pound Ridge, Gnadenhutten, Great Swamp, Fox Indian, Fort Neoheroka, Camp Grant, Wounded Knee, the Trail of Tears…these and countless other such events were all “bound to happen”? > > . There’s a difference between a single atrocity and the planned deliberate acts which constitute genocide. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6127 "2015-10-13T17:58:23Z")
[You can start here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Formal_apology_-_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6128 "2015-10-13T18:09:59Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Because those fucktards are legal adults, and if they do something criminally stupid they’re presumed to have moral and legal responsibility for their actions. It’s like saying some people shouldn’t be allowed to have children- arguably true but a horrible, horrible thing if it were ever put into practice. Comparing gun control to regulating births might be a first for you. I find such high regard for an inanimate object…_disturbing._ The low regard you have for other lives shows when you describe the deliberate taking of a life as “criminally stupid”. Stealing a police car is criminally stupid. Senselessly ending a human life for no good reason is tragic. But no, the system works because killers are “presumed to have moral and legal responsibility”, just like petty thieves. Gun murders could jump a thousand percent and still all would be well as long as killers have to answer to the law, right? Also, notice how one side of your mouth claims the legal system is the “solution” to gun violence, and the other side of your mouth continually tells us that government is a potential enemy that you must guard against, and that the police are quasi-military Keystone Kops. Which is it, Mr. Inconsistent? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6129 "2015-10-13T18:14:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Does this mean that if the USA could somehow heavily restrict guns, that this would yield 100% positive results, with few or no drawbacks? > > 😕 :eek: :smack: This is your criterion? > > Does the U.S.'s fanatical obsession with guns “yield 100% positive results, with few or no drawbacks”? Are you conceding that restricting guns _would_ have some drawbacks? If so I’d like to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6130 "2015-10-13T18:29:23Z")
Guns don’t interest me. I click this thread just to test my hypothesis that those stupid about guns are stupid in general. Sure enough. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Except the Indian “genocide” wasn’t planned, it just was the unhappy issue of the natives not having resistance to diseases. It was bound to happen. This is **DrDolt** defending his claim that Europeans have been killing millions for thousands of years, while Americans sprang from the soil as sinless virgins in 1776. > [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s a difference between a single atrocity and the planned deliberate acts which constitute genocide. Elvis, Gary et al beat me to it. But it was still amusing to see **DrDeth** double-down on his stupidity, by writing “single atrocity” in response to a long list of atrocities. I didn’t think my opinion of gun nuts could fall any further. **DrDolt** proved me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6131 "2015-10-13T18:34:29Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > (1.)Comparing gun control to regulating births might be a first for you. I find such high regard for an inanimate object…_disturbing._ > > (2.)The low regard you have for other lives shows when you describe the deliberate taking of a life as “criminally stupid”. Stealing a police car is criminally stupid. Senselessly ending a human life for no good reason is tragic. (3.)But no, the system works because killers are “presumed to have moral and legal responsibility”, just like petty thieves. Gun murders could jump a thousand percent and still all would be well as long as killers have to answer to the law, right? > > (4.)Also, notice how one side of your mouth claims the legal system is the “solution” to gun violence, and the other side of your mouth continually tells us that government is a potential enemy that you must guard against, and that the police are quasi-military Keystone Kops. Which is it, Mr. Inconsistent? Nice try, but: 1. We were talking about responsibility for human life. The grave responsibility of owning or using a gun you indicated was beyond the capacity of persons you described as “fucktards”. Let me put it this way, if they’re that g\*\*\*\*\*m dangerous to themselves and others, do you think they should be allowed to raise children? 2. Again, we were talking about the “fucktards” who you indicated could not be trusted with guns because of their irresponsible incompetency. So I presumed we were talking about accidents and thoughtless use, not malevolent acts. I’ll stand by “criminally stupid” to describe that. 3. What other system are you proposing? Competency tests for everyone, with the people who can’t pass them being considered permanent minors? Preventive detention for those who will “probably” re-offend? If killers aren’t presumed to have moral and legal responsibility, why do we bother with trials? 4. I support the right of potential victims to be armed for their defense precisely because prosecution after the fact can only do so much. And yes government misconduct must be guarded against, because unfortunately tyranny and despotism are things that government IS very good at. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6132 "2015-10-13T18:36:48Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > the onus is on you to provide the cites that the actual legislation in the US is more restrictive overall than that in your list of countries (above) with respect to religion, press, and speech. Other than the cites I’ve already provided that rate the US on those aspects, you mean? You know - freedom of press ranking: [https://index.rsf.org/#!/](https://index.rsf.org/#!/) Freedom of religion ranking: [http://theweeklynumber.com/1/post/2015/04/brazil-leads-the-world-in-religious-freedom-finds-pew-study.html](http://theweeklynumber.com/1/post/2015/04/brazil-leads-the-world-in-religious-freedom-finds-pew-study.html) Still looking for one that does freedom of speech, but then again you’ve not provided any cites at all so far, so reckon I’m not doing too bad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6133 "2015-10-13T18:37:56Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > This is **DrDolt** … **DrDolt** proved me wrong. **Septicemia** makes his usual fact based argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6134 "2015-10-13T18:38:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s a difference between a single atrocity and the planned deliberate acts which constitute genocide. You mean like the list of planned deliberate acts I’ve given you there? Out of interest how many atrocities do you need before you’ll acknowledge a trend? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6135 "2015-10-13T20:42:11Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Other than the cites I’ve already provided that rate the US on those aspects, you mean? > > You know - freedom of press ranking: [https://index.rsf.org/#!/](https://index.rsf.org/#!/) > Freedom of religion ranking: [http://theweeklynumber.com/1/post/2015/04/brazil-leads-the-world-in-religious-freedom-finds-pew-study.html](http://theweeklynumber.com/1/post/2015/04/brazil-leads-the-world-in-religious-freedom-finds-pew-study.html) > > Still looking for one that does freedom of speech, but then again you’ve not provided any cites at all so far, so reckon I’m not doing too bad. But they don’t rate comparatively based solely on legislation. Look, I feel this is not productive here. I looked at the cites. They don’t rate purely on the case law and legislative framework. And I granted your point provided you were talking about social attitude. So no, those cited do not address my point. This is very strange that we are not communicating here. I apologize if I am not being clear. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6136 "2015-10-13T21:35:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > This is very strange that we are not communicating here. I apologize if I am not being clear. 😕 My apologies too. Perhaps we’re talking at cross purposes, or I’m being obtuse. The latter is more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6137 "2015-10-13T22:35:09Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > My apologies too. Perhaps we’re talking at cross purposes, or I’m being obtuse. The latter is more likely. I understand and appreciate your position. I don’t think we really have a disagreement. Or I’m the one being obtuse. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6138 "2015-10-14T10:08:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s a difference between a single atrocity and the planned deliberate acts which constitute genocide. [It’s not like the British didn’t consider it](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox). > [@Cecil Adams](#): > > According to historian Francis Parkman, Amherst first raised the possibility of giving the Indians infected blankets in a letter to Colonel Henry Bouquet, who would lead reinforcements to Fort Pitt. No copy of this letter has come to light, but we do know that Bouquet discussed the matter in a postscript to a letter to Amherst on July 13, 1763: > > “P.S. I will try to inocculate the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard’s Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, **who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine**.” > > On July 16 Amherst replied, also in a postscript: > > “P.S. You will Do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as **well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race**. I should be very glad your Scheme for Hunting them Down by Dogs could take Effect, but England is at too great a Distance to think of that at present.” (bolding mine) While there is no definitive evidence that the Indians were given blankets riddled with smallpox, there was indeed a smallpox outbreak amongst the local Indians shortly thereafter. But I guess, like school shootings, it was just “bound to happen”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6139 "2015-10-14T12:45:11Z")
[Man shoots himself to death while working on his car:](https://www.adn.com/article/20151013/kasilof-man-killed-accidental-gunshot) > [@](#): > > Royce Gardner was working on a vehicle when his revolver fell out of his waistband, hit the vehicle and discharged, troopers said. Maybe he should have defended himself with the car in his waistband. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6140 "2015-10-14T13:21:47Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [It’s not like the British didn’t consider it](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox). Fucking bloody hell. Thanks for the link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=306) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=308)