# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 329
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6561 "2015-12-07T16:26:32Z")
You are lumping rate of fire, ammo capacity, and terminal ballistics together and calling them all “more power.” I don’t have the patience to go through it all again. I will simply note that this is not arcane knowledge. A few minutes at wikipedia would give you enough background knowledge about how guns work, what the different types are, and why they exist that you wouldn’t be spouting such a mishmash. You are providing an excellent example, though, of an anti who is apparently proud of his ignorance on the topic. You must be since you emphasized that you are ignorant and refuse to take the easy step of remedying it. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6562 "2015-12-07T16:27:49Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s not just one reporter, it’s a term very commonly used by gun control advocates, as a simple search will reveal. OK, _you_ didn’t say high-powered you were just quoting- fine. I’d still like to know just where the meme of assault rifles like the AR-15 or an AK-47 being “high-powered” came from. By any objective ballistic measure they’re not. When I was growing up, we got our “high-powered” rifle when our dads let us replace our rimfire 22 with a rifle that used a centerfire bottle, necked cartridge (and hunt deer instead of squirrels and chickadees). Shooting enthusiasts seem to argue endlessly over finer points of caliber, slug weight, muzzle velocity or energy at impact possessed by such a rifle. IIRC, the NRA has even considered the M-16/AR-15 to be high-powered. The military certainly considers it to have enough power for the battlefield. Gun rights debaters use the term as a way to prove how little the other side knows or dismiss it as a media invention. In sum it has become a pretty meaningless term with no clear definition, regardless of source. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6563 "2015-12-07T18:58:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You are lumping rate of fire, ammo capacity, and terminal ballistics together and calling them all “more power.” And which one of them _doesn’t_ make a gun more effective/deadly? > [@](#): > > I don’t have the patience to go through it all again. I will simply note that this is not arcane knowledge. A few minutes at wikipedia would give you enough background knowledge about how guns work, what the different types are, and why they exist that you wouldn’t be spouting such a mishmash. I’m ‘lumping together’ things that would each presumably increase the kill rate of a gun. We ‘antis’ want to reduce killing by guns. From that perspective, ISTM that these things belong together in the same way that, in baseball, on-base percentage and slugging percentage - very different things - are lumped together to provide a quick-and-dirty gauge of a player’s offensive ability. You are free to disagree with that value judgment. If ‘high powered’ is a term of art among gun-lovers (I see **jasg** says otherwise), I suppose we ‘antis’ can find some other term. Maybe we can call it ‘gun OPS’ or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6564 "2015-12-07T19:06:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ll admit I don’t know shit about guns, but are you saying that these guns, even as semi-automatics available for retail sale, have no advantage in a combat situation over your typical deer rifle? Can’t fire any faster? Can’t fire more bullets before reloading? Can’t blow bigger holes? > > I’m pretty damned sure that these guns are considerably more high-powered, by these measures, than the rifles we fired at targets at my summer camp nearly 50 years ago. And I also remember the debate over whether Lee Oswald could have fired all three shots at Kennedy and Connally, because the minimum time between shots with his gun was something like 2.8 seconds. I bet the AR-15 and AK-47 can be fired much more rapidly than that. OK, a quick primer: _Formerly_, hunting rifles were typically bolt or lever-action and had internal magazines, meaning you had to work the action between rounds and could fire four-six rounds before needing to reload. Semi-automatic rifles will fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger, and removable magazines allow a gun to be reloaded more quickly and hold more rounds. These were pioneered in military rifles well before the AR and AK actually, but have since moved into the mainstream. Even shotguns are now available in semi-auto, removable-magazine versions. I’ll grant you that yes, this makes pumping out rounds a much faster process. But again, it’s not unique to AR/AK variants. Bigger Holes: not really. .The 30-06 and .308 cartridges typical of World Wars 1 & 2 and still used as hunting cartridges are much bigger. The modern AR and AK cartridges were actually designed to be smaller and lighter. > [@jasg](#): > > When I was growing up, we got our “high-powered” rifle when our dads let us replace our rimfire 22 with a rifle that used a centerfire bottle, necked cartridge (and hunt deer instead of squirrels and chickadees). > > Shooting enthusiasts seem to argue endlessly over finer points of caliber, slug weight, muzzle velocity or energy at impact possessed by such a rifle. > > IIRC, the NRA has even considered the M-16/AR-15 to be high-powered. The military certainly considers it to have enough power for the battlefield. > > Gun rights debaters use the term as a way to prove how little the other side knows or dismiss it as a media invention. > > In sum it has become a pretty meaningless term with no clear definition, regardless of source. Apparently, “high power rifle” is officially the name of a class of target shooting: [High power rifle - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_power_rifle) The AR-15 is at the low end of the rifles considered qualified, which may explain the NRA definition. The round used- the 5.56 NATO- is considered (mostly) _adequate_ for military use. It replace the older larger rounds because the ammo and the gun that shoots it are smaller and lighter, and it was judged that their shorter range (~300m) was good enough for anyone but a dedicated sniper. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6565 "2015-12-07T19:20:40Z")
Actually, in researching my previous post, I may have found the basis for the “high-powered” meme. The M-16 (full-auto version of the AR-15) fired a 5.56 round that is considered high- **velocity**. At least some authorities consider bullet speed more important than bullet weight (and others, the opposite) so it gained a reputation as a particularly lethal round, at least for it’s size. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6566 "2015-12-07T19:53:31Z")
Lumpy, I’m sorry that I made fun of you for prattling on about a distinction that didn’t matter, when instead I should have been making fun of you for being factually wrong. Today I learned that the AR-15 is, by shooting competition definition, a high power rifle. That’ll be a good one to keep in my back pocket. Thanks for doing the research! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6567 "2015-12-07T21:10:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Lumpy, I’m sorry that I made fun of you for prattling on about a distinction that didn’t matter, when instead I should have been making fun of you for being factually wrong. > > Today I learned that the AR-15 is, by shooting competition definition, a high power rifle. That’ll be a good one to keep in my back pocket. Thanks for doing the research! Don’t wet yourself; high power is taken as more or less anything more powerful than a carbine. A rifle, in other words. Any deer rifle qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6568 "2015-12-07T22:16:50Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Don’t wet yourself; high power is taken as more or less anything more powerful than a carbine. A rifle, in other words. Any deer rifle qualifies. That’s what I thought yesterday, today I learned otherwise. Thanks to you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6569 "2015-12-08T00:18:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > So what’s your opinion of people who promoted medicinal marijuana before some states legalized it? You mean people who obeyed the law while working to change it? That isn’t what you claim to want to do, now is it? No, if you don’t like a law, your approach, your \*only \*approach, is to go find some police officers to kill. You are the _problem_. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6570 "2015-12-08T12:08:27Z")
Remember how the process concealed-carry gun owners have to go through is so rigorous that the general public don’t need to worry about them? Well, nothing’s perfect… [7-year-old girl killed at MI soccer practice after ‘paranoid’ man with concealed carry license opens fire](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/7-year-old-girl-killed-at-mi-soccer-practice-after-paranoid-man-with-concealed-carry-license-opens-fire/) The paranoia appears to be a recent development; no idea how long he’s had the gun or license. Very, very sad. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6571 "2015-12-08T15:32:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The owners of those guns should be thrown into the deepest, darkest cell in the State of Georgia and never, ever let out again. An update from today’s Atlanta Journal Constitution. First, the legal background: > [@AJC](#): > > Adults are criminally liable in Georgia only when they intentionally or knowingly provide a child access to a handgun. One case may not be the child shooting themselves. The mother says that the handgun had fallen and went off. The mother was shot in the leg by the same bullet. This case is going to a grand jury. Grant Demmington, the father of a 2-year old who took a gun out of the father’s holster lying on the father’s bed and shot himself is not being prosecuted. The police chief said: > [@](#): > > We spent a lot of time talking to the dad, interviewing other family members. This was not routine on his part. He always took the necessary precautions." He must have a different definition of “always” from me. The DA explained it was a judgment call as to whether something is “reckless conduct or just a tragic mistake”. To my mind, leaving a loaded gun in the open when kids are around is most certainly “reckless”. It’s another responsible gunowner, until he wasn’t. Demarqo Smith has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and reckless conduct for placing a gun under a sofa cushion from here his 6-year old daughter retrieved it and shot herself. Note that > [@AJC](#): > > The National Rifle Association has consistently opposed safe storage laws, arguing they compromise a gun owner’s security by providing criminals a clear advantage in home invasions. In the final case, Christopher Askins, the boyfriend of the mother of the 2-year old who found a gun in the home and shot himself has been charged with second-degree cruelty to children and possession of a gun by a convicted felon. The cruelty charge is an attempt to get around the fact that negligence is not illegal. > [@AJC](#): > > Had it not been illegal for him to possess a gun, Askins would likely not have been charged, said Vivian Goldenberg of the Georgia chapter of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. Of course, that is just an opinion and we do not know what the DA would have done. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6572 "2015-12-08T17:31:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > OK, a quick primer: > > _Formerly_, hunting rifles were typically bolt or lever-action and had internal magazines, meaning you had to work the action between rounds and could fire four-six rounds before needing to reload. Semi-automatic rifles will fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger, and removable magazines allow a gun to be reloaded more quickly and hold more rounds. These were pioneered in military rifles well before the AR and AK actually, but have since moved into the mainstream. Even shotguns are now available in semi-auto, removable-magazine versions. I’ll grant you that yes, this makes pumping out rounds a much faster process. But again, it’s not unique to AR/AK variants. OK, so AK-47s and AR-15s have a lot of company in what I would consider the ‘high-powered rifle’ category. Gotcha. They’re high-powered rifles, and they’re designed for people to hunt other people with. They surely have plenty of company there as well. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6573 "2015-12-08T17:55:27Z")
Finally, a solution for those cold winter days where you just can’t drag yourself out to shop for a gun in person… The [Gun TV](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/gun-tv-home-shopping-channel) home shopping channel. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6574 "2015-12-08T17:55:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, so AK-47s and AR-15s have a lot of company in what I would consider the ‘high-powered rifle’ category. Gotcha. > > They’re high-powered rifles, and they’re designed for people to hunt other people with. They surely have plenty of company there as well. So I’m having a hard time understanding why Lumpy even barfed this trivial issue up after reading the Pete Williams quote. It sounds like he doesn’t even disagree. What the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6575 "2015-12-08T18:50:08Z")
My point is to refute the kind of ignorant idiocy about ARs and AKs that led to this masterpiece of understanding: > [@](#): > > “Semi-automatic weapons are not just about gun control, they’re about national security, You know that these weapons can shoot down airplanes, they can blow up railroads. This is really a whole national security issue.” > -Jesse Jackson, ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6576 "2015-12-08T19:10:27Z")
To be fair, that’s about the level of expertise and informational usefulness I’d expect the Rev to have anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6577 "2015-12-08T19:13:44Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > My point is to refute the kind of ignorant idiocy about ARs and AKs that led to this masterpiece of understanding: Yet, Pete Williams said something you actually agree with, so this response makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6578 "2015-12-08T20:55:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Remember how the process concealed-carry gun owners have to go through is so rigorous that the general public don’t need to worry about them? Well, nothing’s perfect… > > [7-year-old girl killed at MI soccer practice after ‘paranoid’ man with concealed carry license opens fire](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/7-year-old-girl-killed-at-mi-soccer-practice-after-paranoid-man-with-concealed-carry-license-opens-fire/) > > The paranoia appears to be a recent development; no idea how long he’s had the gun or license. Very, very sad. Michigan is a “shall issue” state, which means that the permit process is not rigorous at all. You ask for a concealed carry permit, they check you for a felony record or warrants, then they give you the permit. Any dumbfuck with no experience or training can get one if their criminal record is clean enough. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6579 "2015-12-08T23:52:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So I’m having a hard time understanding why Lumpy even barfed this trivial issue up after reading the Pete Williams quote. It sounds like he doesn’t even disagree. What the fuck? He thought he was onto something until no one would take the bait and he finally had to look it up himself 5 days later. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/6580 "2015-12-09T21:11:39Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Whatever wakes Congress up to passing common sense gun control laws. Obviously, crazy white guys shooting up movie theaters, elementary schools, high schools, colleges, shopping malls, women’s health organizations, etc. don’t move these assholes to act like human beings. > > Maybe crazy Muslims shooting up a center for developmentally disabled people will. Whether these asshole shooters were radicalized or disgruntled or mentally ill, it doesn’t really matter. Republicans are \*terrified \*of Muslims, after all. Maybe their terror will now allow them to pass some gun control legislation. Or maybe it’ll just drive them further into Right-Wing Nutjobville. It was the thought of black people with guns that drove Reagan to sign gun control legislation. Wouldn’t be surprised if it happened again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=328) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=330)