# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/921 "2013-03-07T15:12:42Z")
Moreover, the NCPA link cites a Free Republic article which cites “Statistics from the ABS,” without giving specifics. [Here’s another cite with statistics from the ABS](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html) which shows an overall decrease in homicide, an increase in assault (about 30%), and a tiny increase in sexual assault (the largest increase by far is females aged 0-14, who probably weren’t arming themselves in large numbers before the ban). Certainly none of these trends justify the wild numbers that are bandied about. Likening a post-ban Australia to some kind of criminal’s paradise continues to be completely dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/922 "2013-03-07T15:19:21Z")
The animal situation is very different. In Australia, there are three basic kinds of animals, animals that will kill you and eat you, animals that will just kill you, and the adorably, unbearably cute. Hell, I’d arm myself just for the spiders, never mind the snakes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/923 "2013-03-07T15:29:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is no good reason to hope, but I’ve nothing better to do. I havent kept track of your position but too much of the gun control side of the debate seems to bebased on hope, an irrational hope that flies in the face of facts and evidence. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > **States with strictest firearm laws have lowest rates of gun deaths** , [study finds](http://www.boston.com/dailydose/2013/03/06/states-with-strictest-firearm-laws-have-lowest-rates-gun-deaths-boston-children-hospital-study-finds/zaIGbTdwtVaPFiGlCfSlTP/story.html): > [@Kable](#): > > OK, so you can’t admit that gallup found gun ownership is up sharply in recent years? You just can’t do it? > > You just change the subject. Anyway see how your link says “gun deaths” rather than homicides? That because homicides didn’t show the trend and they needed to count suicides. That’s how gun control “researchers” manipulate the simple minded. We all knew guns were needed for gun related suicides. Without them they become hanging, carbon monoxide, or train jumping related suicides. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oDlCeD78M](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oDlCeD78M) > > You’re the girl. I agree that suicide should not be a factor. Yes suicide by gun is the most successful popular form of suicide but I choose to ignore it for a few reasons. First, guns are not the only form ofsuicide with a high success rate and I think a lot of suicides would replace guns with things like jumping off a building. More importantly, I am no more inclined to ban guns because people may shoot themsleves with it than I am inclined to ban cigarettes because it may cause the early death of the smoker or corn syrup and sugar because it may cause diabetes and kidney failure. Ihave a problem with second hand smoke where someone imposes costs on others through their behaviour but I am very reluctant to limit a constitutional right in order to prevent someone from hurting themselves. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Assuming this is correct (and there are just as many studies that claim to show that increased gun ownership leads to fewer crimes overall), could there be a “chicken or egg” effect here? Could regions with low crime and murder rates see little utility in allowing guns and so be more likely to restrict them? ETA: Or in other words, would imposing stricter gun laws on regions that currently have high violence and murder rates actually reduce those rates? Debatable. > > Guns are for more than protecting us “from each other”; when gun ownership is widespread enough, collective security becomes decentralized, minimizing dependency on the state for security. I think that’s a good thing. Herd immunity from crime. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah, that statistic appears to be bandied about quite a lot on esteemed think tanks like the Free Republic. Not so much the corresponding stats that gun-related suicide and homicide fell (dramatically, in the case of suicide) and there hasn’t been a single mass shooting in more than a decade since the laws were enacted. Nor that rates of gun ownership in Australia were [already vanishingly small](http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/05/the-misuse-of-our-gun-crime-stats/) compared to the U.S. even before the ban, which casts some doubt on the implication that guns were previously a widespread effective deterrent against rape and now the rapists are enjoying a disarmament free-for-all. > > But hey, _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_, right? When it suits, at least. How big a percentage of murders did mass shooting represent? Suicide stats dont really count the same aw homicides. Correlation isnt causation but it certainly seems to poke some holes in the notion that eliminating guns in society is and unmitigated good. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/924 "2013-03-07T15:29:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > But hey, _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_, right? When it suits, at least. You’re as stupid as you are dishonest: "Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime: •In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. •Sexual assault – Australia’s equivalent term for rape – increased 29.9 percent. •Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. Moreover, Australia and the United States – where no gun-ban exists – both experienced similar decreases in murder rates: •Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America’s rate dropped 31.7 percent. •During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. •Sexual assault – Australia’s equivalent term for rape – increased 29.9 percent. •Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. •At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent. •Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women." Also hangings did go up in Australia the same as gun suicides went down. “As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” > **[Gun laws of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia#Measuring_the_effects_of_firearms_laws_in_Australia)** > > Firearms restriction in Australia are predominantly within the jurisdiction of Australian states and territories, with the importation of guns regulated by the federal government. In the last two decades of the 20th century, following several high-profile killing sprees, the federal government coordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments. > Gun laws were largely aligned in 1996 by the National Firearms Agreement. In two federally funded gun buybacks and voluntary... ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/925 "2013-03-07T16:06:35Z")
Gosh, with all this terrible, terrible stuff happening, the pro-gun movement in Australia must be totally huge! Australians must be marching by the hundreds of thousands to protest this ghastly development! Haven’t heard anything like that, but that’s probably the gun-grabbing liberal media suppressing the news. Yeah, that must be it. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/926 "2013-03-07T16:08:36Z")
"A top National Rifle Association official in New York no longer has the right to bear arms. Richard D’Alauro, the NRA’s field representative for the city and its suburbs, is forbidden from owning guns under an order of protection stemming from a confrontation with his wife in their Long Island home, the Daily News has learned. Suffolk County authorities filed misdemeanor charges of assault and endangering the welfare of a child and a noncriminal charge of harassment as a result of the domestic dustup, which occurred at 1:55 a.m. on Sept. 1, 2010, records show. At the time, the police confiscated a whopping 39 pistols, shotguns and rifles that D’Alauro kept in the couple’s East Northport, L.I., home. " Wow. 39 guns. Does that qualify one as a fetishist? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/927 "2013-03-07T16:12:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gosh, with all this terrible, terrible stuff happening, the pro-gun movement in Australia must be totally huge! Australians must be marching by the hundreds of thousands to protest this ghastly development! Haven’t heard anything like that, but that’s probably the gun-grabbing liberal media suppressing the news. Yeah, that must be it. Probably the gun-grabbers there are the same as you. Just not persuadable by facts. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/928 "2013-03-07T16:17:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Moreover, the NCPA link cites a Free Republic article which cites “Statistics from the ABS,” without giving specifics. > > [Here’s another cite with statistics from the ABS](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html) which shows an overall decrease in homicide, an increase in assault (about 30%), and a tiny increase in sexual assault (the largest increase by far is females aged 0-14, who probably weren’t arming themselves in large numbers before the ban). Certainly none of these trends justify the wild numbers that are bandied about. Likening a post-ban Australia to some kind of criminal’s paradise continues to be completely dishonest. This point has to be amplified. **The increase in sexual assaults in Australia during the time period in question is essentially entirely due to an increase in incidents involving girls under 15.** See Figure 3 from the link **steronz** provided: [http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html#fig3](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html#fig3) **Kable** has asserted causation; according to him the gun ban caused an increase in sexual assaults in Australia. It is up to him to explain how the gun ban caused an increase in sexual assaults of girls under 15 while leaving the trend line for the remainder of all women unchanged. This is further evidence of the process in which gun strokers lie to one another and then experience difficulty when trying to foist those lies on people outside their shrinking enclave. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/929 "2013-03-07T16:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > …Probably the gun-grabbers there are the same as you. Just not persuadable by facts. Oh, I see! So the reason that Australians are not seething with outrage over this is because they are really, really stupid! What a brilliant, incisive argument. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/930 "2013-03-07T16:25:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Correlation isnt causation but it certainly seems to poke some holes in the notion that eliminating guns in society is and unmitigated good. Wait a second. You’ve been screaming this whole time about how the CDC was justifiably stripped of funding for gun research because you (falsely) asserted that they ignored the truism that correlation does not imply causation. Now you’re saying that it’s a gray area when it comes to evidence you (falsely) think supports your position? What you lack in integrity you make up for in fatuousness. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/931 "2013-03-07T16:27:08Z")
Oh, **Kable**? When you find that YouTube video from Australia, remember to turn it right side up. Just a pro-tip. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/932 "2013-03-07T16:28:19Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This point has to be amplified. \*\*The increase in sexual assaults in Australia during the time period in question is essentially entirely due to an increase in incidents involving girls under 15 No it’s not. According to the graph its just mostly due to girls under 15. Rapes of girls over 15 went up too, while in the USA with all our guns, rapes decreased. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/933 "2013-03-07T16:29:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I see! So the reason that Australians are not seething with outrage over this is because they are really, really stupid! What a brilliant, incisive argument. I can’t say what they are doing. Never been there, but I can’t imagine they are free of really really stupid people. People like you are everywhere. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/934 "2013-03-07T16:43:40Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No it’s not. According to the graph its just mostly due to girls under 15. Rapes of girls over 15 went up too, while in the USA with all our guns, rapes decreased. 🙂 See the dark line in the middle of the graph that represents all sexual assaults during the period from 1993 to 2006? The trend is minimally increasing over the whole span. Sexual assaults of adult women track almost perfectly with that trend line. Look at the slope of the line from 1993 to 1996 - the period prior to the gun ban. This period shows an increasing trend of essentially the same magnitude. Is it your claim that the gun ban had the effect of increasing sexual assaults PRIOR to it being enacted? What is that? _Ante hoc ergo propter hoc_? The trend line of sexual assault for the population as a whole (excluding girls up to age 14) is mildly increasing in a linear fashion during the entire period, prior to and subsequent to the ban. The only discontinuity evident whatsoever involves girls who were too young to be affected by the ban on guns. Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/935 "2013-03-07T17:03:07Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I can’t say what they are doing. Never been there, but I can’t imagine they are free of really really stupid people. People like you are everywhere. 🙂 Just got to help you out here, **Kable** , its embarrassing watching you do this to yourself. All you gotta do is link to one of the stories about the massive popular movement in Australia to restore the guns! Which there has to be, given the catastrophic results that gun-grabbers made happen there. There must be huge rallies everywhere, politicians rushing headlong to get on the right side of the argument! And all you gotta do is link to the news stories! You know, like, “Huge Massive Pro-Gun Demonstrations in Sydney!” That’s not real, I couldn’t find anything like that, but then I’m just a stupid gun-grabber, you should have no problem, being so much smarter. And all. Here, i’ll just get out of the way so you have more room to post them all! OK, maybe not all of them, maybe just the top ten or fifteen. Please proceed. And don’t worry if you forget, I’ll remind you. Here to help. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/936 "2013-03-07T17:09:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wait a second. You’ve been screaming this whole time about how the CDC was justifiably stripped of funding for gun research because you (falsely) asserted that they ignored the truism that correlation does not imply causation… Well, now, let’s not be too hasty here, this could be a very important issue! I had pretty much assumed that the guys over at CDC were very well educated in all this math and logic stuff, being scientists, and all. But if it turns out that they are all just a bunch of Ricky Retardos, who haven’t got a grip on the most fundamental principles…well, I’m sure you see the problem! Did they get their degrees out of a box of Cracker Jacks? Why are we even paying these incompetent clowns? If **DA** is right, we have a very, very serious problem over at CDC! Of course, if he’s wrong, we can just laugh and forget about it, but still… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/937 "2013-03-07T17:11:09Z")
Ooops, sorry! Meant to stay out of the way so **Kable** can do his massive dump of news stories about Australian outrage at the gun-grabbers. About ready, are you, **Kable**? Any time. Let 'er rip! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/938 "2013-03-07T17:11:34Z")
Furthermore, the trend for violent crime in the UK from 1995 to present has been a steep downward slope; a decline of greater than 50% ([UK Government Web Archive](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_283456.pdf)). If the argument is that we should mimic the gun laws of other countries based on their violent crime trends, then we should enact the gun laws of the UK here in America. Right **Kable**? Right **Dumuri Ajashi**? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/939 "2013-03-07T17:11:47Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > Wow. 39 guns. Does that qualify one as a fetishist? Not unless having a whole room of your house dedicated to baseball cards or Star Wars memorabilia also counts. I do wonder however about anyone who has a [wheel of guns](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2827516127_ab31d8d856_z.jpg) on their wall. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/940 "2013-03-07T18:26:16Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oDlCeD78M](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oDlCeD78M) Well, that is perhaps the only way for gun strokers to win the argument: create a virtual representation of your opponent and put words in her mouth so that she sounds really dumb. You could even try that at the next RNC. Perhaps you could represent, say a Democratic president with, oh I don’t know… and empty chair, maybe? You better get an established actor to do it, though. Otherwise it might seem awkward, stilted and disconcerting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=48)