# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1141 "2013-03-12T13:59:08Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You can’t keep repeating something [until it’s true.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16006986&postcount=497) Of course, you’ve just shown us how inept your are at reading studies, so I don’t imagine you’ll get it this time either. “Firearm suicides have fallen from about 22% of all suicides in 1992[26] to 7% of all suicides in 2005.[27] Immediately following the Buyback there was a fall in firearm suicides which was more than offset by a 10% increase in total suicides in 1997 and 1998. There were concerted efforts in suicide prevention from this time and in subsequent years the total suicide rate resumed its decline.” “For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004)[31] in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” > **[Gun laws of Australia | Research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia#Research)** > > In 1981, Richard Harding, after reviewing Australian and other data at that time, said that "whatever arguments might be made for the limitation or regulation of the private ownership of firearms, suicide patterns do not constitute one of them. " He quoted a 1968 international analysis of 20 developed countries "cultural factors appear to affect suicide rates far more than the availability and use of firearms. Thus, suicide rates would not seem to be readily affected by making firearms less a In ... ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1142 "2013-03-12T14:02:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > See? There we were having a civil discussion and you have to start being insulting. Sorry I do that if I’m in the pit and the other side starts sensationalizing. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1143 "2013-03-12T14:08:25Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > “Firearm suicides have fallen from about 22% of all suicides in 1992[26] to 7% of all suicides in 2005.[27] Immediately following the Buyback there was a fall in firearm suicides which was more than offset by a 10% increase in total suicides in 1997 and 1998. There were concerted efforts in suicide prevention from this time and in subsequent years the total suicide rate resumed its decline.” > > “For example, Ozanne-Smith et al. (2004)[31] in the journal Injury Prevention found a reduction in firearm suicides in Victoria, however this study did not consider non-firearm suicide rates. Others have argued that alternative methods of suicide have been substituted. De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods.” > > [Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia#Research) Do you see the difference between your quotes and the two studies I cited? Studies which control for various factors and drew a conclusion that disagrees with you? You keep posting the same thing over and over as if it means something. **Find a study that examined the affect of Australia’s gun buyback program on suicides that came to a different conclusion than the two that I’ve cited.** ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1144 "2013-03-12T14:10:43Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sorry I do that if I’m in the pit and the other side starts sensationalizing. I didn’t think I was sensationalizing. I think you’re just getting afraid that I’ll eventually convert you into a Senator Feinstein fan. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1145 "2013-03-12T14:11:04Z")
So you’ve extrapolated from “it is possible that this was true of some cases in this instance” to “this will happen”. Pardon me for not considering this conclusive. ETA: Whoa there, **Bob**. Even I’m not much of a Feinstein fan. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1146 "2013-03-12T14:12:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And yet, when given a choice, people prefer firearms almost [3 to 1.](http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html) That seems to be the american way. In other countries they do it different. "The leading method of suicide varies between countries. The leading methods in different regions include hanging, pesticide poisoning, and firearms.[71] These differences are believed to be in part due to availability of the different methods.[58] A review of 56 countries found that hanging was the most common method in most of the countries,[72] accounting for 53% of the male suicides and 39% of the female suicides.[73] Worldwide 30% of suicides are from pesticides. The use of this method however varies markedly from 4% in Europe to more than 50% in the Pacific region.[74] It is also common in Latin America due to easy access within the farming populations.[58] In many countries, drug overdoses account for approximately 60% of suicides among women and 30% among men.[75] Many are unplanned and occur during an acute period of ambivalence.[58] The death rate varies by method: firearms 80-90%, drowning 65-80%, hanging 60-85%, car exhaust 40-60%, jumping 35-60%, charcoal burning 40-50%, pesticides 6-75%, medication overdose 1.5-4%.[58] The most common attempted methods of suicide differ from the most common successful methods with up to 85% of attempts via drug overdose in the developed world.[24] In the United States 57% of suicides involve the use of firearms with this method being somewhat more common in men than women.[13] The next most common cause was hanging in males and self poisoning in females.[13] Together these methods comprised about 40% of U.S. suicides.[76] In Switzerland, where nearly everyone owns a firearm, the greatest number of suicides are by hanging. [77] Jumping to one’s death is common in both Hong Kong and Singapore at 50% and 80% respectively.[58] In China the consumption of pesticides is the most common method.[78] In Japan self disembowelment known as seppuku or hara-kiri still occurs[78] however hanging is the most common.[79]" > **[Suicide | Methods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Methods)** > > The leading method of suicide varies among countries. The leading methods in different regions include hanging, pesticide poisoning, and firearms. These differences are believed to be in part due to availability of the different methods. A review of 56 countries found that hanging was the most common method in most of the countries, accounting for 53% of male suicides and 39% of female suicides. > Worldwide, 30% of suicides are estimated to occur from pesticide poisoning, most of which occur in th... And the USA is certainly not an outlier in the total suicide department: > **[List of countries by suicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)** > > The following are lists of countries by estimated suicide rates as published by the World Health Organization (WHO) and other sources.\[note 1\] > In many countries, suicide rates are underreported due to social stigma, cultural or legal concerns. Thus, these figures cannot be used to compare real suicide rates, which are unknown in most countries. > The global total of suicide deaths decreased from an estimated 762,000 in 2000 to 717,000 in 2021, which is 9.1 deaths per 100,000 population. In hig... ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1147 "2013-03-12T14:14:35Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Studies which control for various factors and drew a conclusion that disagrees with you? Studies that massage the data and ignore what’s unpleasant to their theory? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1148 "2013-03-12T14:17:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Studies that massage the data and ignore what’s unpleasant to their theory? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1149 "2013-03-12T14:21:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > ETA: Whoa there, **Bob**. Even I’m not much of a Feinstein fan. Just trying to give him a chuckle. I think a little levity helps when people are at loggerheads. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1150 "2013-03-12T14:24:20Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Cite? Here’s the data: > **[33090\_2005.pdf](https://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/952361A2A29BDBB4CA25729D001C09CF/$File/33090_2005.pdf)** > > 678.26 KB There is a nice graph on page 3. What year were the gun buy backs? Oh yeah 1996. What happened right after? Oh yeah suicides went up. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1151 "2013-03-12T14:32:46Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Here’s the data: > > [http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/952361A2A29BDBB4CA25729D001C09CF/$File/33090\_2005.pdf](http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/952361A2A29BDBB4CA25729D001C09CF/$File/33090_2005.pdf) > > There is a nice graph on page 3. What year were the gun buy backs? Oh yeah 1996. What happened right after? Oh yeah suicides went up. Gun buybacks cause suicides!?!? No wonder you’re so concerned! Holy shit, Seinfeld went off the air in 1998 and there was a big spike! Despondent Seinfeld fans must have offed themselves in droves! See, this is why you can’t just look at the raw data. What else happened in 1996? How did the population change? What about the economy, a driving factor behind many suicides? You need to account for all of these factors before drawing a conclusion. If only there were 2 studies I’d cited where people _did_ account for those factors and declared the substitution theory to be bunk. If only… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1152 "2013-03-12T14:38:15Z")
I am legitimately impressed by the time and effort you’ve dedicated to this thread, **Kable**. Being incomprehensible that you would spend so much time away from your arsenal, may we assume that your underground bunker is Internet-connected? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1153 "2013-03-12T14:44:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > See, this is why you can’t just look at the raw data. What else happened in 1996? How did the population change? What about the economy, a driving factor behind many suicides? You need to account for all of these factors before drawing a conclusion. If only there were 2 studies I’d cited where people _did_ account for those factors and declared the substitution theory to be bunk. If only… Sure you can look at the raw data. Or you can apply whatever factors you want, ignore what you want, and come up with the data that your “researchers” want to support their theory. But the facts are that a lot of guns were taken off the street, and suicides went up anyway. So sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1154 "2013-03-12T14:52:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s great Jack, now suppose you live in a country or state that does not allow assisted suicide. What should a suffering person do? Just suffer? Do you think it wrong for a person to take their life, or death, into their own hands? Obviously not. They should walk proudly into Walmart, their NRA patch gleaming, pick up an AR15 and go splatter their brains all over the place – maybe take a few fuckers with him in the process, huh? Listen, Rambo, assisted suicide is about as far afield from gun-rights as ladders and pools are. Do you think you can stick to one goddamned point, that is if you’re actually trying to make one? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1155 "2013-03-12T14:55:05Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sure you can look at the raw data. Or you can apply whatever factors you want, ignore what you want, and come up with the data that your “researchers” want to support their theory. But the facts are that a lot of guns were taken off the street, and suicides went up anyway. So sorry. Sure, if you want to ignore the Seinfeld angle, be my guest. Oh sorry, “Seinfeld.” Or “guest.” Gah, I can never get the hang of these scare quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1156 "2013-03-12T14:58:39Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Obviously not. They should walk proudly into Walmart, their NRA patch gleaming, pick up an AR15 and go splatter their brains all over the place… How often are AR15s used for suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1157 "2013-03-12T14:59:58Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Gun buybacks cause suicides!?!? No wonder you’re so concerned! Holy shit, Seinfeld went off the air in 1998 and there was a big spike! Despondent Seinfeld fans must have offed themselves in droves! > > See, this is why you can’t just look at the raw data. What else happened in 1996? How did the population change? What about the economy, a driving factor behind many suicides? You need to account for all of these factors before drawing a conclusion. If only there were 2 studies I’d cited where people _did_ account for those factors and declared the substitution theory to be bunk. If only… I think **Kable** is right; I think it was causal. See, what happened is that all the gun strokers who impulsively sold their guns back ended up mired in remorse, so they punched their tickets. Because if you look at **Kable’s** own data, the suicide rate actually drops consistently from 1998 onward (when presumably the gun ban remained in effect). This guy is remarkably stupid. I mean breathtakingly so. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1158 "2013-03-12T15:02:48Z")
Wait, you mean that 1998 was an outlier? But I thought only dishonest “researchers” cherry pick data. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1159 "2013-03-12T15:05:24Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > How often are AR15s used for suicide? Infrequently, I assume. I also assume we should consider that a good thing, so I guess I do. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1160 "2013-03-12T15:06:37Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Wait, you mean that 1998 was an outlier? But I thought only dishonest “researchers” cherry pick data. Not an outlier, but 1997 was the peak of a mild growth in suicides that began diminishing thereafter. Your point remains, though. Describing the gun buy back as causing an increase in suicides in Australia is as dishonest to the data as his effort to suggest that it caused an increase in rapes. The guy has to be a troll. I think he’s also very, very stupid, but troll nevertheless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=59)