# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1421 "2013-04-02T03:46:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > About self-defense. Isn’t that what cops are for? Isn’t that why we have them, to defend ourselves? Cops say no: https://www.youtube.com/embed/dilyymWsgAY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1422 "2013-04-02T03:49:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Because Fred goes to the bathroom at exactly 10:05 am each day. Like clockwork. He’s well regulated. And therefore, his right to bear prunes shall not be infringed. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1423 "2013-04-02T04:09:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > About self-defense. Isn’t that what cops are for? Isn’t that why we have them, to defend ourselves? Not sure what you’re getting at. Are you trying to imply that people don’t have a right to defend themselves, because police exist? Or are you just arguing that guns aren’t necessary for self defense? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1424 "2013-04-02T04:55:19Z")
No. Police exist because people have the right to defend themselves. And we empower certain people to carry deadly force in our defense. So we don’t have to. We are civilians. That we empower people to represent our right of self defense does not negate that right, but defers it, we choose not to personally exercise that right in favor of a professional force. The right remains ours. In this context, access to lethal force is very defined, very selective. And it is not something one can simply confer upon oneself. If it is sensible for the ordinary civilian to take up lethal force to defend himself against his fellow citizens, we don’t have a civilization, we have an arena. I have been frightened, robbed, intimidated. I am not immune to fear, nor make any special claims of courage or virtue. And I have totally lost my temper, I have totally mistaken a stranger to be a threat, I am entirely human. And I would not offer myself for you to trust me with lethal force. If you, on the other hand, confer that power upon yourself, I can only hope that you do not suffer the same weaknesses that I do. I can only hope, because there isn’t shit I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1425 "2013-04-02T13:48:12Z")
**elucidator** , we pretty much tried what you suggest, from about the 1930’s on when the Uniform Firearms Act was proposed as a standard for urban gun laws and adopted by several states. It was largely what gun control advocates are in favor of: strong controls on the sale of firearms, increased penalties for unlawful possession and misuse of a firearm, and no public carry of firearms except by special permit at the discretion of local law authorities. But somewhere along the line it became apparent that the police could not hold up their end of the bargain, when despite gun control laws gangs and urban crime skyrocketed. Arguably it had only worked to begin with because for decades the police had exercised extra-legal power to brutally suppress people they regarded as members of the criminal element. After the '60s and complaints about police brutality led to reforms, the sort of summary nightstick-justice that had kept the lid on the pot was removed. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1426 "2013-04-02T14:23:43Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > **elucidator** , we pretty much tried what you suggest, from about the 1930’s on when the Uniform Firearms Act was proposed as a standard for urban gun laws and adopted by several states. We tried an armed citizenry also, which is what prompted the UFA. Sauce for the goose. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1427 "2013-04-02T14:41:25Z")
I post this without comment, mostly because I can’t think of anything succinct and :rolleyes:, although appropriate, doesn’t seem sufficient. [Georgia town passes mandatory gun ownership law](http://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/02/georgia-town-passes-mandatory-gun-ownership-law) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1428 "2013-04-02T14:45:25Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > I post this without comment, mostly because I can’t think of anything succinct and :rolleyes:, although appropriate, doesn’t seem sufficient. > [Georgia town passes mandatory gun ownership law](http://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/02/georgia-town-passes-mandatory-gun-ownership-law) It is a toothless gesture, a pointless thumb in the eye of gun safety advocates: > [@](#): > > The Nelson ordinance exempts convicted felons, residents with physical and mental disabilities\*\* and those who do not believe in owning firearms\*\*, Cronic said. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1429 "2013-04-02T14:48:55Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Really Hentor? This didn’t happen? > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_NJQK2BscIg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg) As has probably been said to you before, data is not the plural of anecdote. I am thoroughly convinced that playing the lottery is not a good investment, and several dozen youtube videos of people winning the lottery will not convince me otherwise. In the same way individual anecdotes of people being saved by guns doesn’t overturn the overall statistics that more guns results in a less safe society. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1430 "2013-04-02T15:09:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is a toothless gesture, a pointless thumb in the eye of gun safety advocates: It’s mandatory unless you don’t want to do it. This is an interesting definition of “mandatory”. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1431 "2013-04-02T15:26:45Z")
But the exemption is for people “who don’t believe in owning firearms.” What if I think owning firearms is fine, but I just don’t feel the need for one myself? By the letter of the law, am I not required to own a firearm? Or should I lie and say I’m anti-gun so I’m not forced to buy one? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1432 "2013-04-02T15:48:12Z")
Any way you look at it, it is stupid though. And it’s in the news today so I figured it qualified. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1433 "2013-04-02T20:12:59Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > But the exemption is for people “who don’t believe in owning firearms.” What if I think owning firearms is fine, but I just don’t feel the need for one myself? By the letter of the law, am I not required to own a firearm? Or should I lie and say I’m anti-gun so I’m not forced to buy one? > 😉 Well, you have to own one. It doesn’t say you have to have ammunition, or the firearm has to be assembled. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1434 "2013-04-02T20:26:52Z")
See, you need to get a gun so you can prevent the government from taking it away. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1435 "2013-04-02T21:06:32Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > **elucidator** , we pretty much tried what you suggest, from about the 1930’s on when the Uniform Firearms Act was proposed as a standard for urban gun laws and adopted by several states. It was largely what gun control advocates are in favor of: strong controls on the sale of firearms, increased penalties for unlawful possession and misuse of a firearm, and no public carry of firearms except by special permit at the discretion of local law authorities. > > But somewhere along the line it became apparent that the police could not hold up their end of the bargain, when despite gun control laws gangs and urban crime skyrocketed. Arguably it had only worked to begin with because for decades the police had exercised extra-legal power to brutally suppress people they regarded as members of the criminal element. After the '60s and complaints about police brutality led to reforms, the sort of summary nightstick-justice that had kept the lid on the pot was removed. Even if we accept that your diagnosis of the cause is accurate, this is a cure? No, this is fear. This is internalizing fear, making it a part of your daily life. This is not the way forward, this does not lead to a more civil and less violent world. This is a shrug, well, that’s just the way it is, people never change. Civilization requires courage, it requires that you trust people you don’t know. With it, the world opens up, without it, we are just very dangerous monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1436 "2013-04-02T22:05:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Are you fucking kidding me? It was you, dickhead, who came out with this gem: > > “I dont think anyone on this board wants tragedy to happen but you certainly get the impression that some people think that it would be worth it if we could get rid of guns.” > > And we also have this beauty from your comrade in arms (no pun intended) CrafterMan: “… I would rather keep our gun laws exactly the way they are – and put up with the occasional massacre – than enact ultra-strict gun control measures that would guarantee something like this would never occur.” > > You should look up “projection” in a psych manual. You don’t see the difference between what you said and what I said? So you think I’m projecting because of something someone else said? Are you sure you know what the word means or do you think all everyone that supports the whole bill of rights share a hive mind. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If Palin said it, gun strokers would be fist pumping and yelling “Booyah!!” Yep, we must all have a hive mind. I actually fondle my gun, I oil it up and I fondle it. > [@Kable](#): > > Four year old girl shot with a handgun? If the gun-grabbers read that they will call for a ban on semiautomatic rifles! Just the ones with collapsible stocks and bayonet lugs because that would have made the difference. > [@Kable](#): > > Why wait. Banning handguns makes a lot more sense from a public health perspective than banning semiautomatic rifles. That’s nothing new, it’s always been that way. Didn’t you know? We used to say this about Republicans but it applies to the anti-second amendment crowd just as well… They’re either lying or stupid (ignorant?). > [@dropzone](#): > > I actually agree with that, so let’s ban handguns. Except for the very few that are designed to punch holes in paper their sole purpose is punching holes in people, and they are a lot easier for children to mishandle. > > Congratulations for finally wising up, Kable. It takes a big man to evolve philosophically. So why does your side of the argument seem to instinctively reach for an AWB and keep reassuring everyone that they have no intention of touching handguns? > [@elucidator](#): > > Bit fuzzy on the motivation here. If “gun-grabbers” don’t “really” want to save lives, what is it that they do “really” want? Macrame? A chance to date Jane Fonda? The perfect dry Martini? > > Maybe you don’t know? Your telepathic rays show you the truth, that the “gun grabbers” don’t really want to save lives, but doesn’t tell you what they do want? Of course, “gun grabbers” might disagree…well, of course they would, wouldn’t they, they are all liars! > > Looks take a tip from somebody a lot smarter, being me. Don’t ever, ever put on your telepathy rays when talking to your girlfriend or your family. You don’t want to know. Of course, they want to save lives but they don’t seem to have any idea what would achieve that goal short of eliminating guns from society (see the "guns=bad mantra that keeps getting repeated around here). > [@Kable](#): > > I figure what you want to do is ban guns. Why because you are registered democrats and that’s what a registered democrat is supposed to do. I’m a registered Democrat and I know lots of Pittsburgh Democrats that share my opinion that the second amendment is every bit a part of the constitution as the first amendment. > [@](#): > > I think a lot of you are liars, or coy with your true intentions so to speak. I think a lot of them are ignorant and have no interest in changing that. > [@Kable](#): > > I’m just saying it would be more reasonable target if gun grabbers were really interested in saving lives. But you don’t because you’re not, rather you all are just a little hysterical over evil looking semiautomatic rifles. Sure, some of the ones that feel this way are hysterical about black guns but some of them are just ignorant. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Our anti-Asian-Americans-in-Philadelphia program has been discovered! Clear out the command post and destroy all documentation. Make sure that all hard drives have been pulled. Are you on the Princeton admissions staff? > [@elucidator](#): > > I would very much like to educate people to the point where they didn’t want the damned things, but that is not the same thing. If you were educated about them you wouldn’t feel the need to try to keep them out of other people’s hands. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Kind of fails to support a lot of the foundation proffered by **Damuri Ajashi** and the NRA, even though it isn’t done by the dreaded CDC! If it isn’t from the CDC, I’m sure the gun-types will welcome it with open arms, right? You mean the study funded by the NIH? Didn’t we go over this in another thread. The medical profession is suspect generally because they have animus against guns generally. I think this conclusions in that study have been debunked, haven’t they (the whole owning a gun makes you 4.5 times more likely to be shot to death thing)? > [@Lumpy](#): > > Until comparatively recently people instinctively believed that the way to win a fight was to be more aggressive with a better weapon, because that was what had worked since the first ape-man picked up a thighbone and brained someone with it. But multishot firearms, beginning in the late 1850s changed that. Multishot firearms weren’t just a difference of degree, they were a difference in kind. When a milquetoast with a .45 can kill the biggest badass in town, the rules of conflict changed. When both parties in a dispute are armed with guns, you don’t “win” a fight- let alone an argument- with a gun anymore than you win a war fought with nuclear weapons. But ingrained attitudes are slow to change. Too many people erroneously think that a gun is a means of commanding instant respect, or a license to be arrogant. Guns place an **extreme** premium on personal responsibility and people who never learned that or who forget it under the influence of alcohol quite often come to grief with them. > > When I took the course required in my state to get a carry permit, the instructor had rule #1 which I have taken to heart: “When you carry a gun, treat everyone else like they are carrying a gun”. That means no mouthing off, no escalating, no thinking a gun will do what your fists couldn’t. A gun is for staying out of fights, not winning them. And the law at least here strongly expects permit holders to stay out of trouble. God made men, Colonel Colt made them equal. With great power comes great responsibility. Every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it. > [@elucidator](#): > > About self-defense. Isn’t that what cops are for? Isn’t that why we have them, to defend ourselves? Doesn’t that reflect the meaning of the 2nd Amendment, a well regulated force? They can’t really do their jobs without having the option of lethal force. And we accept that, given whatever degree of training and vetting we deem appropriate. A bail bondsman, sure, they are empowered to arrest, pretty much have to go with that. Professional bodyguards? Don’t know, getting kinda close to the line, there. Fred from Accounting? Why? Why should I be asked to entrust Fred from Accounting the same lethal force I grant policemen? Did I ever tell you about the LA riots? And your not granting Fred from accounting the police power, you are merely recognizing his constitutional right to keep and bear arms. You want to eliminate Fred’s ability to keep and bear arms, then go and repeal the second amendment (good luck with that). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1437 "2013-04-02T22:07:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even if we accept that your diagnosis of the cause is accurate, this is a cure? No, this is fear. This is internalizing fear, making it a part of your daily life. This is not the way forward, this does not lead to a more civil and less violent world. This is a shrug, well, that’s just the way it is, people never change. > > Civilization requires courage, it requires that you trust people you don’t know. With it, the world opens up, without it, we are just very dangerous monkeys. And yet, despite there being more guns than ever owned by private law abiding citizens, the rate of violent crime has been steadily declining over the last few decades. Maybe the correlation between gun ownership and violent society isn’t as clear as you think. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1438 "2013-04-02T22:19:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …Did I ever tell you about the LA riots?.. Post a YouTube video of it. Proves about as much as taking the wildest possible example and pretending it applies to everyday life. You see the one where the guy pulled the truck driver out of his truck and then another guy dropped a big ass rock on his head and did a victory boogie? What I realized when I saw that is that, had I been armed, I would have shot that man. But that’s not my call to make. I don’t pretend to be entitled to carry lethal force, I don’t pretend I am entitled to kill. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1439 "2013-04-02T23:20:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even if we accept that your diagnosis of the cause is accurate, this is a cure? No, this is fear. This is internalizing fear, making it a part of your daily life. This is not the way forward, this does not lead to a more civil and less violent world. This is a shrug, well, that’s just the way it is, people never change. > > Civilization requires courage, it requires that you trust people you don’t know. With it, the world opens up, without it, we are just very dangerous monkeys. By all means, change the world. America has an ingrained violence problem irrespective of firearms (we have more _non-gun_ homicides than all homicides in western Europe and Japan combined). But banning guns will not magically instill peace and brotherhood into peoples’ hearts. I’m astonished at the number of people who think guns are dark talismans that whisper “Kill! Kill! Kill!” into their owner’s dreams at night. And again, the baseless accusation that gun owners are motivated by fear. I **do** trust people I don’t know, including the strangers at the corner with the convenience store and bus stop where a robbery or assault is recorded at least a couple of times a month. I understand that 99+% of the people I encounter there are ordinary Joes who mean me no harm. My concealed handgun is the insurance against the day I might get unlucky. It’s because of it that I can _afford_ to presume that the strangers around me are probably decent people. > [@elucidator](#): > > You see the one where the guy pulled the truck driver out of his truck and then another guy dropped a big ass rock on his head and did a victory boogie? What I realized when I saw that is that, had I been armed, I would have shot that man. > > But that’s not my call to make. I don’t pretend to be entitled to carry lethal force, I don’t pretend I am entitled to kill. How about you? I’m sorry you can’t trust yourself to carry a gun. But I think the truck driver in question would have been entitled kill rather than be killed himself. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1440 "2013-04-03T01:42:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The medical profession is suspect generally because they have animus against guns generally. Serious question. Can you explain why this is so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=73)