# Stupid Gun news of the day (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729 "2013-01-29T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1541 "2013-04-07T13:42:40Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > In Oregon, a retired sheriff’s captain shot himself in the hand while cleaning a gun… at his annual qualification test… at the police firing range. Good grief. Where do all these stupid gun owners come from? I only almost accidentally shot someone _once_! ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1542 "2013-04-07T14:23:27Z")
Oh I get it. All you gun grabbers just like to pretend defensive gun use never happens but deep down you all know the number is so high that it would be fatal to your arguments to admit what you think it really is. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1543 "2013-04-07T14:35:41Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Oh I get it. All you gun grabbers just like to pretend defensive gun use never happens but deep down you all know the number is so high that it would be fatal to your arguments to admit what you think it really is. I’m not a gun grabber, I’m a gun owner. Unfortunately I share that title with a lot of stupid and/or crazy people, so I’m going to say that the number of accidental discharges/shootings/homicides is far, FAR higher than documented cases of guns properly being used in self defense. Still, its why I own one and continue to own one, while also supporting some kind of sensible gun controls to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of psychopaths and the mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1544 "2013-04-07T14:48:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’m not a gun grabber, I’m a gun owner. Unfortunately I share that title with a lot of stupid and/or crazy people, so I’m going to say that the number of accidental discharges/shootings/homicides is far, FAR higher than documented cases of guns properly being used in self defense. Surely there must be some research on the subject? Give me an estimate, not some vague comparison. Maybe google it. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1545 "2013-04-07T15:11:44Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Surely there must be some research on the subject? Give me an estimate, not some vague comparison. Maybe google it. You know that there is research on the subject, and knowing that, you also know that the results vary pretty wildly depending on whom you ask or believe. The National Crime Victimization Survey, funded by the government, estimates about 100,000 DGU’s (defensive gun usage) a year. If you ask the NRA, the number is ten times that. And you can keep your condescending, know it all tone to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1546 "2013-04-07T15:32:28Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You know that there is research on the subject, and knowing that, you also know that the results vary pretty wildly depending on whom you ask or believe. > > The National Crime Victimization Survey, funded by the government, estimates about 100,000 DGU’s (defensive gun usage) a year. If you ask the NRA, the number is ten times that. > > And you can keep your condescending, know it all tone to yourself. Hey well at least you’re not just guessing anymore, now I don’t have to talk down to you. Already you learned the low estimate is several times bigger than the number of gun deaths per year, even if you count suicides. So what do you think maybe the real number is somewhere between the NCV survey and the NRA, or maybe you think the NRA numbers are better? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1547 "2013-04-07T16:08:22Z")
Its not about being stupid, or untrained. Its about being human. I am not burdened with false modesty, or any modesty at all, for that matter. I’m a smart guy, I can figure shit out. A lot of people here are smart as well, I can tell because they steal my jokes. But how many of you have fucked up? How many times have you done something and found yourself standing there saying, Well, that was fucking stupid. Do that with a staple gun, a pair of tweezers or a pencil, no big deal. Do it with a gun, well… These people mentioned upthread, its not that they aren’t trained in safety, its not that they are ignorant or stupid, they aren’t. Its that they are people. Well, duh. Tweezers and pencils are not inherently dangerous, they are not designed to be dangerous. Guns are. So the ordinary human brain fart becomes potentially deadly rather than merely embarrassing. How many smart people do you know who talk on the phone while driving? Well, sure, driving is boring, if you do it right. Paying strict attention to make sure nothing ever happens means that nothing ever happens, and that’s boring. And you know you’re smart, you’re a multi-tasking sumbitch, not like those other people. Am I supposed to get milk and bread, or just milk? Heck, a quick call, sort that out, no problem, wham! Cars are dangerous, guns are more dangerous. Cars are designed to roll from place to place, guns shoot bullets. _Très duh_! So the ordinary human spasm of stupid is exaggerated by the inherent danger of the object. When well trained people fuck up with guns, it doesn’t tell us that they are stupid, it tells us that no amount of training is likely to eradicate the brain fart. (“Hello, Dr. Sacks? Got a great idea for your next book…”) You keep a King Cobra in your house, but you have a degree in herpetology, and everyone knows about the snake and takes sane and sensible precautions? Still a better idea not to have a snake, unless you don’t have a navel. Because if you have a navel, you will fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1548 "2013-04-07T16:24:14Z")
Elucidator, what do you think of FoieGrasIsEvil’s estimates of defensive gun use? Is he way off? How do the best estimates of defensive gun use compare accidental gun deaths you are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1549 "2013-04-07T16:30:11Z")
Also elucidator, just to let you know there is a lot of redundancy gun safety, so you can be human and not still not shoot yourself, which is why almost all gun owners have not shot themselves or a loved one. If you know and practice the rules you will be really safe. So it is about knowledge and training, but since you lack both on the subject I’ll forgive your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1550 "2013-04-07T16:40:40Z")
Damned white of you. I’ll see what I can do to forgive your snotty belligerence, dishonest argument, and general jerkitude. Hint: it would speed things up if you stop. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1551 "2013-04-07T17:13:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Damned white of you. I’ll see what I can do to forgive your snotty belligerence, dishonest argument, and general jerkitude. Hint: it would speed things up if you stop. What’s dishonest about my argument? And what do YOU think is the average incidence of defensive gun use in a years time. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1552 "2013-04-07T17:23:48Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > What’s dishonest about my argument? And what do YOU think is the average incidence of defensive gun use in a years time. It doesn’t matter. If you take a low incident count of 100k times a year, that’s 10 times the number of gun homicides. That’s huge. And that’s a low estimate! If there were really that many people being saved by guns, Kellerman would be instantly shown to be a fraud. Having a gun would be safer than not having a gun by an order of magnitude. But that’s not what we see. The problem is that scaring away an intruder with a gun counts as a DGU, and rightly so, but odds are the intruder wasn’t going to hurt anyone anyway. Banging pans together can also scare off an intruder. DGU is a meaningless statistic, touted only by those who can’t win the argument by asking a more meaningful question, which is, are you safer with a gun? Because the answer to that question is no. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1553 "2013-04-07T17:36:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It doesn’t matter. If you take a low incident count of 100k times a year, that’s 10 times the number of gun homicides. That’s huge. And that’s a low estimate! Yeah, I agree, it’s probably more. Lets say half a million. > [@](#): > > If there were really that many people being saved by guns, Kellerman would be instantly shown to be a fraud. Having a gun would be safer than not having a gun by an order of magnitude. As I recall, Kellerman didn’t even look at people scared off by guns. > [@](#): > > But that’s not what we see. The problem is that scaring away an intruder with a gun counts as a DGU, and rightly so, but odds are the intruder wasn’t going to hurt anyone anyway. Banging pans together can also scare off an intruder. What are the odd that an intruder wasn’t going to harm anyone? What are the odds that banging pots and pans would scare one off? > [@](#): > > DGU is a meaningless statistic, touted only by those who can’t win the argument by asking a more meaningful question, which is, are you safer with a gun? Because the answer to that question is no. I was obviously safer with a gun. Maybe you are only really safer with a gun if you aren’t a drug dealer, gang banger, mentally ill, or have a history of domestic violence. You know the kind of person for whom it’s already illegal to own a gun. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1554 "2013-04-07T17:42:16Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > What’s dishonest about my argument? Your argument, repeated ad nauseum, is that since you once defended yourself with a gun, universal background checks are equivalent to gun grabbing. You have presented nothing but paranoia and non sequitur hysteria, punctuated with GUN GRABBER!! 1! 11! So it not only dishonest, it is the unhinged ravings of a lunatic. Perhaps that is why you oppose background checks; you are jusy too fuckin’ crazy to be permitted to buy bullets, much less guns. I am amazed you can type while in a straight jacket. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1555 "2013-04-07T17:49:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your argument, repeated ad nauseum, is that since you once defended yourself with a gun, universal background checks are equivalent to gun grabbing. I don’t recall ever arguing that universal background checks are the equivalent to gun grabbing. I do think the assault weapon ban is equivalent. > [@](#): > > So it not only dishonest, it is the unhinged ravings of a lunatic. Please cite where I did so, or tell me a bit more about how, or how not, the word dishonest applies to you. > [@](#): > > Perhaps that is why you oppose background checks; you are jusy too fuckin’ crazy to be permitted to buy bullets, much less guns. I am amazed you can type while in a straight jacket. I’ve been checked a lot. I think I’ve mentioned I maintain a CCW permit and I own a number of class III weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1556 "2013-04-07T18:06:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t recall ever arguing that universal background checks are the equivalent to gun grabbing. I just know that’s what you really think, but are just too much of pussy to admit it. Isn’t that how debate works in your brain? You get to project any strawman postion on your opponent based on your psychic ability, and claim self righteous vindication for your raving because we can’t talk you out of it? I don’t see why we should be held to a higher rhetorical standard than you apply to yourself, GUN GROPER! 1!! 1!! 1 ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1557 "2013-04-07T18:06:27Z")
Hey another great poll that shows that most American’s (even most democrats) aren’t as stupid as the gun grabbers on this board: > **[65% See Gun Rights As Protection Against Tyranny](https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/65_see_gun_rights_as_protection_against_tyranny)** > > Two-out-of-three Americans recognize that their constitutional right to own a gun was intended to ensure their freedom.The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 65% of American Adults think the purpose of the Second Amendment... ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1558 "2013-04-07T18:12:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I just know that’s what you really think, but are just too much of pussy to admit it. Isn’t that how debate works in your brain? You get to project any strawman postion on your opponent based on your psychic ability, and claim self righteous vindication for your raving because we can’t talk you out of it? I don’t see why we should be held to a higher rhetorical standard than you apply to yourself, GUN GROPER! 1!! 1!! 1 OK, so you know I haven’t equated backgound checks with gun grabbing. I’ll take this as the closed you can get to an admission you were wrong. I pardon you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1559 "2013-04-07T18:18:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, so you know I haven’t equated backgound checks with gun grabbing. I’ll take this as the closed you can get to an admission you were wrong. I pardon you. 🙂 I accept your apology for being a delusional dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729/1560 "2013-04-07T18:24:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I accept your apology for being a delusional dickhead. I’m a bit of a dickhead, but what do you think I’m delusional about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-gun-news-of-the-day-part-1/648729.md?page=79)