# Stupid ignorant pigheaded parents who refuse vitamin K shots for their newborns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297 "2014-07-29T03:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/21 "2014-07-31T18:17:43Z")
Forget it, **Doctor\_Why\_Bother** , it’s **dougie\_monty** -town… ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/22 "2014-07-31T18:26:45Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Now, assuming those two premises are correct, and assuming I were a real doctor and not just some random internet moron, if I gave these kids the injection anyway and just didn’t tell the parents would that make me a bad person? I mean, I know it’s not allowed and I would totally be breaking the law, but in simple moral terms just how ethically dodgy would I be? If you read the wiki on unethical human experimentation in the US, you’ll feel that violating informed consent is very ethically dodgy. I don’t just mean, ‘well, yeah, it was dodgy when **they** did it,’ I mean that those of us in the business have to take it seriously at all times. Recently I was at a medical record documentation workshop and my hospitals attorney told us that the pain and suffering portion of a malpractice award is limited, in california, to $250k, but not for battery. So, if you consent to an appendectomy, and I show up drunk and leave my rolex inside you, pain and suffering = 250, if I try and push you to get your gallbladder out while I’m ‘in the neighborhood’, and you refuse, but I take it out anyway, the sky’s the limit. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/23 "2014-07-31T18:31:04Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Go read some home birth websites if you really want your head to spin. Women who had hospital births refer to it as “birth rape,” and women who lost babies in home births claim things like “it was a variation of normal.” There was even one loon who claimed that her hospital “birth rape,” that resulted in a healthy baby, was more traumatic _for her_ than the home birth where she lost her baby. The egocentrism is unbelievable. It’s not about the baby for these people, it’s about the “birth experience.” I gotta admit, that blows my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/24 "2014-07-31T19:14:28Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > OMG! An _acid_? That has got to be bad for you-- I don’t care what else is in it, no one is dosing my kid with acid! [“And when she arrives, I shall squirt her… with CITRIC ACID!”](http://nonadventures.com/2007/09/29/for-whom-the-cell-tolls/) ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/25 "2014-07-31T20:41:39Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > There was even one loon who claimed that her hospital “birth rape,” that resulted in a healthy baby, was more traumatic _for her_ than the home birth where she lost her baby. The egocentrism is unbelievable. It’s not about the baby for these people, it’s about the “birth experience.” Although this claim is supremely ridiculous, I’d be lying if I said it surprised me. The human experience spans a lot of fucked-up spectrums, and you can’t choose how you feel. Although sympathy-trolling is the far more likely culprit, I’ll allow that it’s not impossible for someone to feel worse about a hospital birth than a homebirth (regardless of outcome). ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/26 "2014-07-31T21:03:41Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Go read some home birth websites if you really want your head to spin. Women who had hospital births refer to it as “birth rape,” and women who lost babies in home births claim things like “it was a variation of normal.” There was even one loon who claimed that her hospital “birth rape,” that resulted in a healthy baby, was more traumatic _for her_ than the home birth where she lost her baby. The egocentrism is unbelievable. It’s not about the baby for these people, it’s about the “birth experience.” Exactly. So much of this science rejecting woo about birth and babies is all about feeding the parents’ needs to feel superior to those stupid doctors and scientists who know less than parents, who apparently get a PhD in every medical-related field when they create a fetus. It’s NOTHING to do with the health of the child, it’s all about feeling morally perfect. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/27 "2014-07-31T21:50:31Z")
Can the Vitamin K be given to babies in oral form? Would that satisfy at least some of the nutters? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/28 "2014-07-31T22:26:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Forget it, **Doctor\_Why\_Bother** , it’s **dougie\_monty** -town… Never miss an opportunity to make an ass of yourself, daddy-o. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/29 "2014-07-31T22:28:07Z")
Oral isn’t as reliable. Plus the baby may throw it up. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/30 "2014-07-31T22:43:09Z")
Ah, that makes sense. It sounds like it would still be better than nothing, though. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/31 "2014-07-31T23:08:10Z")
I’m sure it’s still OMG! chemicals! I’ve never heard of a cry for a return to the oral polio vaccine (a vaccine which DID have unacceptably high risks, and the story of which is an example of how the AMA and FDA operate when a vaccine does have problems), and there is one vaccine (I think it’s HiB, but it might be rotavirus), that is oral, and I don’t see anti-vaxxers lining up for that particular one. A lot of woo types have weird ideas about “chemicals” being bad for you, so PediaSure is unacceptable (I took some crap for buying it for my son for a long car trip, because he likes it and thinks it’s a treat, and at the time, he was really skinny, and we were supposed to be encouraging him to get extra calories), but bread and yogurt are “natural.” I remember someone once commenting that a kid at school didn’t have one food in its “natural state” (the kid did have a kind of crappy lunch, but “natural state” wasn’t the problem); a lunch the teacher would have approved of was a PB sandwich, yogurt, and fresh fruit. I don’t know about yours, but in my world, bread, PB and yogurt are not food in their natural state. And I don’t know what person would eat a bowl of wheat berries, raw milk from the teat, and raw, unsalted peanuts. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/32 "2014-08-01T04:00:25Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I’m sure it’s still OMG! chemicals! I’ve never heard of a cry for a return to the oral polio vaccine (a vaccine which DID have unacceptably high risks, and the story of which is an example of how the AMA and FDA operate when a vaccine does have problems), and there is one vaccine (I think it’s HiB, but it might be rotavirus), that is oral, and I don’t see anti-vaxxers lining up for that particular one. > > A lot of woo types have weird ideas about “chemicals” being bad for you, so PediaSure is unacceptable (I took some crap for buying it for my son for a long car trip, because he likes it and thinks it’s a treat, and at the time, he was really skinny, and we were supposed to be encouraging him to get extra calories), but bread and yogurt are “natural.” I remember someone once commenting that a kid at school didn’t have one food in its “natural state” (the kid did have a kind of crappy lunch, but “natural state” wasn’t the problem); a lunch the teacher would have approved of was a PB sandwich, yogurt, and fresh fruit. I don’t know about yours, but in my world, bread, PB and yogurt are not food in their natural state. And I don’t know what person would eat a bowl of wheat berries, raw milk from the teat, and raw, unsalted peanuts. And a poisonous wild mushroom is about as natural and organic as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/33 "2014-08-01T13:05:19Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Never miss an opportunity to make an ass of yourself, daddy-o. You started it by casting aspersions on the morals of the people of this board. That seems to be your MO: you make a rude comment, someone reacts back at you and you blame _them_ for being rude. That said, I find giving the child a shot without parents knowledge to be ethically dicey. Informed consent is too important to be playing fast and loose with, as emotionally satisfying as it would be to help the babies. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/34 "2014-08-01T15:08:27Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I’m sure it’s still OMG! chemicals! I’ve never heard of a cry for a return to the oral polio vaccine (a vaccine which DID have unacceptably high risks, and the story of which is an example of how the AMA and FDA operate when a vaccine does have problems), and there is one vaccine (I think it’s HiB, but it might be rotavirus), that is oral, and I don’t see anti-vaxxers lining up for that particular one. Right, but in those cases it’s the actual vaccine they don’t want, because vaccines have distilled evil in them or whatever. I’m guessing (although I have no real evidence so this may be BS) that many anti-vaxers are fine with giving their kids vitamin tablets, or vitamin drops. In the case of Vitamin K, it seems like - at least in some cases - the problem would be with the form of delivery: if you’re all geared up to throw fits about how no one is going to give your new baby the evil vaccine shots, and someone shows up with a needle, you may not make the distinction. But if the nurse then comes back with an eyedropper and says they want to give the baby a few drops of Vitamin K, I’m betting at least some anti-vaxers would be fine with that. Not ideal, obviously, but again - better than nothing. Is there a reason why that backup option doesn’t even seem to be on the table? Or is it in some hospitals? (I know it shouldn’t have to be, but we’re talking about reality here, not what should be.) Also, seven babies showing up at one hospital in eight months with VKDB…my God. I didn’t realise the risk was so high. When my kids got the shot, I assumed it was to prevent a risk of one in tens of thousands or so. I still wanted it done, but I didn’t think it was particularly important. It sounds like it was a bigger deal than I realised. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/35 "2014-08-01T15:57:46Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > I’m guessing (although I have no real evidence so this may be BS) that many anti-vaxers are fine with giving their kids vitamin tablets, or vitamin drops. In the case of Vitamin K, … _-snip-_ > > Not ideal, obviously, but again - better than nothing. Is there a reason why that backup option doesn’t even seem to be on the table? Or is it in some hospitals? (I know it shouldn’t have to be, but we’re talking about reality here, not what should be.) I think newborns don’t have very mature bowels, because they aren’t used to eating, and don’t absorb oral vitamins anyway, even if they don’t spit them up. The fear is probably that if it were well known that drops were a choice, nearly all parents would want to spare their baby the pain of an injection, and choose the drops (people never think _my_ kid will be the one will very poor absorption, or will spit up). By having the injection as the only option, a few parents refuse, but the vast majority allow it, so a greater number of babies are protected. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/36 "2014-08-01T16:27:22Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I find giving the child a shot without parents knowledge to be ethically dicey. Informed consent is too important to be playing fast and loose with, as emotionally satisfying as it would be to help the babies. Shrug, in Spain you don’t need to give consent to every. Single. Thing; there’s things that are optional and things which are part of the pack. You have a baby, the baby gets every step in the protocol unless specifically contraindicated (the contraindications also being part of the protocol). Trying to refuse a procedure classified as Medically Necessary may end up getting Social Services called in. But then, we’re all a bunch of socialists and we believe that a child’s right to live and live healthy trumps his parents’ right to make medical decisions. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/37 "2014-08-01T16:32:57Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You started it by casting aspersions on the morals of the people of this board. That seems to be your MO: you make a rude comment, someone reacts back at you and you blame _them_ for being rude. > That said, I find giving the child a shot without parents knowledge to be ethically dicey. Informed consent is too important to be playing fast and loose with, as emotionally satisfying as it would be to help the babies. Well, I agree with you there. The parents should scream bloody murder!! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/38 "2014-08-01T16:47:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Shrug, in Spain you don’t need to give consent to every. Single. Thing; there’s things that are optional and things which are part of the pack. You have a baby, the baby gets every step in the protocol unless specifically contraindicated (the contraindications also being part of the protocol). Trying to refuse a procedure classified as Medically Necessary may end up getting Social Services called in. > > But then, we’re all a bunch of socialists and we believe that a child’s right to live and live healthy trumps his parents’ right to make medical decisions. Seriously? You’re equating what I said with not believing in the child’s right to live or receive adequate medical care? I also don’t believe in doctors being deceptive. Thats a path I think is extremely dangerous. I think refusing established medical treatments warrants a visit from CPS and a detailed discussion of the parents concerns and providing education. Doctors being purposefully deceitful (which is what the actual hypothetical I was responding to was about) is not something to be taken lightly. I’m about as close to a socialist as you can get- that has nothing to do with the scenario I was discussing. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, I agree with you there. The parents should scream bloody murder!! You missed the part actually directed at you. Further, there are no harmed parents- it was a hypothetical. Finally, you have no valid opinion here regarding refusing established and safe medical practices to save children’s lives that I respect, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/39 "2014-08-01T17:26:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Shrug, in Spain you don’t need to give consent to every. Single. Thing; there’s things that are optional and things which are part of the pack. Here, you, or your insurance, has to pay for Every. Single. Thing. You get an itemized bill. If you don’t have insurance, the vitamin K shot comes out of your pocket, and even if you do have insurance, you may have a co-pay. I don’t know if any of the parents who refuse are actually doing it to save money, but I’d wager that it has happened. We had trouble getting someone on the phone to make sure our son’s Hep B shot was covered, and he ended up getting it at public health nursing right after we were discharged. At least, DH and I had both been vaccinated for Hep B, so the boychik’s chance of exposure was minimal. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/40 "2014-08-01T17:37:16Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Seriously? You’re equating what I said with not believing in the child’s right to live or receive adequate medical care? > > I also don’t believe in doctors being deceptive. Thats a path I think is extremely dangerous. I think refusing established medical treatments warrants a visit from CPS and a detailed discussion of the parents concerns and providing education. Doctors being purposefully deceitful (which is what the actual hypothetical I was responding to was about) is not something to be taken lightly. I’m about as close to a socialist as you can get- that has nothing to do with the scenario I was discussing. > > You missed the part actually directed at you. Further, there are no harmed parents- it was a hypothetical. Finally, you have no valid opinion here regarding refusing established and safe medical practices to save children’s lives that I respect, IMHO. I don’t give a damn whether you respect me or not! If I were a parent I would be furious if a doctor gave my child treatment without my knowledge or consent. Not only would I not pay for such treatment, I would sue the doctor–and maybe even press assault charges. In any case, I would turn the matter over to my lawyer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297.md?page=3)