# Stupid ignorant pigheaded parents who refuse vitamin K shots for their newborns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297 "2014-07-29T03:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/81 "2014-08-04T16:55:46Z")
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I get your point now. What I’m saying is: If I, as an expectant parent, am researching the various options for childbirth, and checking the costs, my research may lead me to any number of pages about Vitamin K shots, benefits, contraindications, etc. Yes, if I’m uninsured, I will have to pay for this shot out of pocket. However, in the course of my research, I’ll probably go to a lot of websites. It begins to become obvious to me that Mercola _et al_ seem to want to sell me something instead of that shot. Given the high overall cost of pre- and perinatal care\*, though? Caviling over the cost of this shot is just stupid, in my opinion. \*Not to mention the eighteen+ years ahead! ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/82 "2014-08-04T17:08:42Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I get your point now. What I’m saying is: If I, as an expectant parent, am researching the various options for childbirth, and checking the costs, my research may lead me to any number of pages about Vitamin K shots, benefits, contraindications, etc. Yes, if I’m uninsured, I will have to pay for this shot out of pocket. However, in the course of my research, I’ll probably go to a lot of websites. It begins to become obvious to me that Mercola _et al_ seem to want to sell me something instead of that shot. > > Given the high overall cost of pre- and perinatal care\*, though? Caviling over the cost of this shot is just stupid, in my opinion. > > \*Not to mention the eighteen+ years ahead! I’m not saying I believe many people refuse the shot because they don’t want to pay its cost. It’s like colloidal silver–I’m not not taking it because I am trying to save money. I don’t take it because I believe it to be harmful and that it has no benefit. I assume anyone simultaneously touting its benefits and trying to sell it to me is a lying quack looking to profit, but that’s because I already believe it is junk. Other than not being junk, how is the Vitamin K shot different? Non-quacky medicine both promotes and profits from it. How is a dummy supposed to know the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/83 "2014-08-04T17:31:23Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > To tell them what? That there are ignorant parents out there? > Believe me, they know. I know they know - it would be an exercise in feeding my own sense of superiority. Plus I could say that at least I tried. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/84 "2014-08-04T17:46:27Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > How is the average schmo supposed to discern the difference between fake science and the real thing? “Trust us, we’re scientists!” is unsurprisingly not compelling. > If real scientists are so smart, why aren’t they better at convincing fools to make better choices? Look at Dr. Mercola and his ilk: they are clearly superior at marketing “ideas” to that segment of the population that lacks critical thinking skills. Get a better ad agency, science! I’m as hardcore anti-quack as they come, but I think this is an excellent point. Given the sheer volume of shameless hucksters on the net, there are relatively few good science writers out there, and even fewer free resources. Anti-vaccinationists present their case using brightly coloured, user-friendly, interactive, professionally designed websites that address the readers directly and use every rhetorical trick under the sun to convince them their irrational fears are justified. Pro-science websites, by contrast, are often either dry and academic or outright condescending, and either way they have a marked tendency to preach to the converted. As educational resources for anti-quack keyboard warriors like me, they’re great. For convincing frightened parents that, say, vaccines are safe and effective they’re about as much use as Anne Frank’s drum kit. Of course, scientists have the tougher job, even with the weight of evidence on their side. The people we need to convince are already mistrustful of vaccines to begin with, and it’s far, far easier to convince someone that their gut instinct is right than to convince them to take a chance on the one thing they’re worried about, regardless of how groundless their worries are. Nonetheless, it seems like few scientists are even trying in the first place. Of course, there are exceptions (Paul Offitt and Ben Goldacre spring to mind), but even then you have to actually _buy_ their books, and what worried parent would do that when scumfucks like Mike Adams and Joe Mercola are already telling them what they want to hear for free? The facts are out there and they’re fairly easy to understand, even for the layman. This isn’t an information problem, it’s an image problem. I don’t know how to fix it, but I have some ideas: 1). Start a free blog and put the facts out there yourself. The more Google-able, jargon-free resources out there, the better (I’m putting something like this together myself). Do it, even if you’re just repeating what you’ve read on other pages. Parents need to hear this stuff from regular people as well as scientists. 2). Complain, loudly and repeatedly, whenever you see instances of false balance in the mainstream media. The vaccine controversy is not a “debate”, and shouldn’t be treated as such. Conversely, when you see a mainstream media organisation treating the issue properly, fire off an e-mail to congratulate them 3). When all else fails, offer pie. Seriously, everyone loves pie. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/85 "2014-08-04T18:09:34Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Vaccination has never been a problem for me. I’m all for it. When I was a kid my parents taught me how to deal with getting shots. They told me Yes, it would hurt–but told me how to bear up under it. I succeeded. I’ve never had any objection to injections since; but if I were a parent I would certainly want the doctor to tell me what’s going on. Of course the doctor should tell you – I didn’t say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/86 "2014-08-05T02:22:12Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > 3). When all else fails, offer pie. Seriously, everyone loves pie. My brother had pie instead of cake at his wedding. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/87 "2014-08-05T06:43:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Of course the doctor should tell you – I didn’t say otherwise. Fine. I’m glad we agree on that point. 🙂 > [@Was Richard Nixon great or terrible?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-great-or-terrible/694810/18): > > 7 > > More to the point – based on my reading of [_Nixonland,_](http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/B003E7ET0S) by Rick Perlstein – he was not an honest man. He had a sincere dedication to public service and he had a kind of integrity, but his integrity never included honesty. And specifically he never accepted, in practice nor in theory, any notion at all that a politician is obliged to tell the truth to the public. His attitude was always that those in-the-know will make the decisions and “the public will be told what the public needs to be told.” > > When Nixon was in the Navy he made a lot of money playing poker. He was a very good poker player. He had the all-important skill of dissembling his true position/intentions to other players, bluffing, keeping the poker face – which is not exactly a dishonest thing within the setting of that game, but he seems to have assumed it would be as appropriate and would serve him as well in political life. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/88 "2014-08-05T12:18:11Z")
> [@susan](#): > > And considering how many people think “Africa” is a country, I weep. To such people, I ask the logical follow-up: “Then what is Mali, Angola, Egypt, Botswana, and Kenya?” (Wrong) answers vary. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/89 "2014-08-05T12:18:15Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > I’m as hardcore anti-quack as they come, but I think this is an excellent point. Given the sheer volume of shameless hucksters on the net, there are relatively few good science writers out there, and even fewer free resources. I disagree. There are plenty of good free online resources, both “official” and unofficial (blogs\*, news articles and analyses) that have user-friendly formats and can be readily understood by any sentient human. The big problem is that a sizable minority of people have been sucked into a resentful anti-expert, anti-education, anti-“establishment” frame of mind where useful knowledge is automatically discounted and paranoid mindsets celebrated. The only real solution is to use all available tools to keep that minority from having undue influence over the rational and approachable majority. One practical suggestion that is increasingly being implemented is to supplement straightforward factual presentations with personal testimonies. The latter tactic has been successful for alt loons, so why not make more use of it in the service of evidence-based medicine? One example (in the service of promoting immunization) can be found at [pkids.org](http://www.pkids.org/diseases/pertussis/silence_the_sounds_of_pertussis/family_stories.html). \*Here’s [Respectful Insolence](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/05/refusal-of-neonatal-vitamin-k-injections-antivaccine-deja-vu-all-over-again/) on vitamin K refusal. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/90 "2014-08-05T13:46:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I disagree. There are plenty of good free online resources, both “official” and unofficial (blogs\*, news articles and analyses) that have user-friendly formats and can be readily understood by any sentient human. > > The big problem is that a sizable minority of people have been sucked into a resentful anti-expert, anti-education, anti-“establishment” frame of mind where useful knowledge is automatically discounted and paranoid mindsets celebrated. The only real solution is to use all available tools to keep that minority from having undue influence over the rational and approachable majority. > > One practical suggestion that is increasingly being implemented is to supplement straightforward factual presentations with personal testimonies. The latter tactic has been successful for alt loons, so why not make more use of it in the service of evidence-based medicine? One example (in the service of promoting immunization) can be found at [pkids.org](http://www.pkids.org/diseases/pertussis/silence_the_sounds_of_pertussis/family_stories.html). > > \*Here’s [Respectful Insolence](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/05/refusal-of-neonatal-vitamin-k-injections-antivaccine-deja-vu-all-over-again/) on vitamin K refusal. I envy you. You apparently encounter a far more sentient set of humans out and about than I do. I am sad to say that most people are not nearly as capable as you think, and would not be able to effectively follow along with your example blog post. In fact, I fear that post could backfire, as it does quote extensively from a moron, and could even drive traffic TO her site. If you think the majority are “rational and approachable,” I again am envious. Alas, it is not logic and reason that drives most parents to accept the shot, but an unquestioning nature, sheepish obedience, and in many cases, complete ignorance of anything going on around them at any given moment–many will have no idea post-facto whether their child has received the shot or not, nor will any flicker of recognition pass across their faces when questioned. In this case, their ignorance serves them well, but to describe them as “rational” is optimistic hubris. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/91 "2014-08-05T19:29:50Z")
I heard the Vitamin K shot was promoted by Kellogg’s to get small children hooked on their overly sweet cereals. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/92 "2014-08-05T19:37:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …Well, there’s _ **something** _ wrong with his brain… Silver Nitrate was used to prevent blindness caused by [maternal gonorrhea or chlamydia.](http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/whats-eye-drops-newborns) Infants still get treatment but erythromycin ointment is often used nowadays. Tertiary Syphilis is still a possibilty! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/93 "2014-08-05T20:19:43Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I heard the Vitamin K shot was promoted by Kellogg’s to get small children hooked on their overly sweet cereals. I could never get used to sour cereal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/94 "2014-08-05T20:25:33Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I could never get used to sour cereal. 😉 It’s the only cereal that goes with sour milk. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/95 "2014-08-05T20:57:43Z")
Well, to each his own.😛 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/96 "2014-08-05T21:25:35Z")
You know, if you feed rats a vitamin [K deficient diet, they’ll start eating their own poop](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6845355). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/97 "2014-08-06T00:58:16Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > You know, if you feed rats a vitamin [K deficient diet, they’ll start eating their own poop](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6845355). At last! The perfect rat poison. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/98 "2014-08-06T02:06:51Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > The facts are out there and they’re fairly easy to understand, even for the layman. This isn’t an information problem, it’s an image problem. I don’t know how to fix it, but I have some ideas: > > 1). Start a free blog and put the facts out there yourself. The more Google-able, jargon-free resources out there, the better (I’m putting something like this together myself). Do it, even if you’re just repeating what you’ve read on other pages. Parents need to hear this stuff from regular people as well as scientists. > > 2). Complain, loudly and repeatedly, whenever you see instances of false balance in the mainstream media. The vaccine controversy is not a “debate”, and shouldn’t be treated as such. Conversely, when you see a mainstream media organisation treating the issue properly, fire off an e-mail to congratulate them > > 3). When all else fails, offer pie. Seriously, everyone loves pie. A plug for Voices for Vaccines: > [@](#): > > [http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/](http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/) > > Voices for Vaccines (VFV) is a parent-driven organization supported by scientists, doctors, and public health officials that provides parents clear, science-based information about vaccines and vaccine-preventable disease, as well as an opportunity to join the national discussion about the importance of on-time vaccination. My dear friend Karen Ernst co-founded it. They do great work! Also a huge list of pro-vaccine links here: > **[Anti-vaccine Myths Exposed](http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/Vaccines)** > > This is the A-Team, Hear them Roar! Another friend, Michael Simpson, has a blog called [Skeptical Raptor.](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/) He writes a lot on this issue. Then there’s the [History of Vaccines,](http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/misconceptions-about-vaccines) a website run by the College of Physicians of Philadelphia. You can also check out my book’s Facebook (Your Baby’s Best Shot: Why Vaccines are Safe and Save Lives) page. We frequently run updated and relevant articles about this issue. Both **Kolga** and I would be happy to answer any questions people have. If we don’t know the answer, we can draw on an incredible body of resources for help in finding one. 🙂 If you are offering pie, I am in for sweet potato. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/99 "2014-08-06T19:51:53Z")
This is some kind of Darwin Award one generation removed. Society wasn’t lucky enough for these idiots to off themselves before procreation, but if they end up killing their own offspring it hardly matters – genetically speaking, of course. Oh, yeah, except for the poor suffering babies and all that … ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297/100 "2014-08-06T20:49:59Z")
You know, my mother and her generation actually remember a time when “routine” childhood illnesses maimed and killed. My grandparents remember(ed) life before antibiotics, with all of those attendant risks. How is it that, within two or three generations, we’ve lost our cultural memory of the days when pertussis killed babies and polio was a terrifying fact of life? When childbirth was truly risky business, with complications that frequently killed mothers and babies? I dare some of these twatwaffles to go talk to an 80- or 90-year-old retired doctor or nurse, and ask about these advances in medicine, and whether the medical pros would advocate a return to “natural” treatment! (Hint: The only time I ever heard my late grandmother-in-law get all “het up” about a subject was when we discussed vaccinations for her yet-to-be-born great-granddaughter. Doctor Katherine asked whether I intended to vaccinate. I gave a resounding yes, and Dr. K went to town on the pure idiocy of those who advocated the crunchy granola version of medical treatment. She began practicing medicine in a poor, rural area just before WWII. In 2009, when this conversation took place, she was still haunted by those mothers and babies she couldn’t save, and the children who suffered from diseases that we are now able to prevent. And she was absolutely _furious_ at the notion that parents would dismiss these medical interventions based on propaganda and junk science.) I know it’s a cliche, but there’s that thing about those who ignore history being doomed to repeat it… (Or, better yet, this quote: “If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.” George Bernard Shaw) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-ignorant-pigheaded-parents-who-refuse-vitamin-k-shots-for-their-newborns/694297.md?page=6)