# Stupid liberal idea of the day **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086 "2011-04-20T15:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/541 "2012-01-05T05:49:31Z")
> [@smaje1](#): > > Wow. I so rarely participate in political threads, but my bile is up since Santorum came this close to winning Iowa last night. Flipping SANTORUM. > > So here’s my threadjack of the day: > > A number of Republicans on this thread seem to be bitching about supplying health care, social services, etc., to the people who live in the US. And that’s cool. Go on, bitch about that. I can totally see your point of view – it’s your hard-earned tax dollars going to people you don’t believe deserve the help (or that much help). But since I can see your point of view, can you please see my point of view that if, by your argument, government should be smaller and less intrusive, then why the hell do they care if gays marry each other? Marriage, love, and sex are among the most personal aspects of my life. Why do so many Conservatives want to use their political power to deny two human beings the right to be married? To win votes from people who think sex is icky. Everything the Republicans do makes sense when you realize their purpose is not to govern, but to win elections. Governing is not what they’re about. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/542 "2012-01-05T06:55:13Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Illegal immigrants pay taxes for social security and medicare for people like YOU with as much as 7 billion dollars per year, but they can never collect. [cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html) And? Yes, some illegals end up paying taxes to the federal government and they don’t get it back because of their status. This doesn’t do anything for California, nor does it have anything to do with me. BTW, I liked how your cite said it was impossible to know how many illegals pay taxes, but then went on to say most do. OK… > [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > So when will you become part of the solution? I hear Arizona’s nice this time of year, and legislate laws about illegal immigration much more to your liking! Those two sentences don’t have anything to do with each other, nor do either of them have anything to do with the part of my post you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/543 "2012-01-05T07:26:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > And? Yes, some illegals end up paying taxes to the federal government and they don’t get it back because of their status. This doesn’t do anything for California, nor does it have anything to do with me. Illegal immigrants buy lots of stuff that attracts sales tax in California. And, given that the majority of illegal immigrants probably don’t do much of their shopping on the internet, they also pay sales tax on the things they buy in California. Every time they fill their cars up with gas, they pay a state (and a federal) gas tax. It is too simplistic to talk only about what taxes illegals pay or don’t pay. The problem, as author Peter Schrag notes in his book [California: America’s High-Stakes Experiment](http://www.amazon.com/California-High-Stakes-Experiment-Peter-Schrag/dp/0520244362), is that there is considerable imbalance in the ways in which the taxes are paid versus the ways in which the benefits are collected. Most illegal immigrants pay taxes that are collected at the state and federal level, particularly things like sales tax and income and payroll taxes. On the other hand, a lot of the public services used by illegal immigrants are provided at the local level—things like schools, hospital emergency rooms, etc., etc. What this leads to is a situation in which a relatively small part of the American population bears a disproportionate burden in providing services to these immigrants, without receiving any benefit from the taxes that the immigrants pay at the state and federal level. There are, for example, many towns in California’s central valley where the school systems are staggering under the weight of illegal immigrant children, without ever getting any of the sales tax or income and payroll taxes paid by those children’s parents. Illegal immigrants might be a net gain for the American economy, but they are also, in many cases, a net drain for particular communities, especially some of the communities where the illegals actually spend most of their time. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/544 "2012-01-05T07:43:15Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Because I am not earning a paycheck, I am not contributing to our economy? Um, yeah, no, you’re not. You’re draining our economy. You’re not contributing to it. I would have thought that would be uncontroversial. > [@](#): > > As for trying to “set rules”, my husband earns a paycheck and pays high taxes on it, and he anti-illegals too. Really, though, it seems sorta unlikely that he’s paying enough to make up for your drain on our economy. > [@](#): > > Unless you are living here, you are not affected by my opinions on what state tax money should be spent on. You want to support illegals, I don’t care but you are also demanding that those of us who don’t want to follow your beliefs. I don’t know what ungrateful has to do with it, but what you are doing is not exactly - uh - nice. Not only am I living here in the US, I’m also gainfully employed, so yeah, try to show a little gratitude for those of us who are paying your way for you. > [@](#): > > And, as for the illegals contributing to the economy, a negative contribution is not a good thing. But the illegal immigrants are making a positive contribution. It’s just you who is making a negative contribution. All those folks you’ve shown so much contempt for are, indirectly, making things _better_ for me. You’re a drain who’s making things worse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/545 "2012-01-05T14:46:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > When did it become legal for anyone to employ an illegal? It’s not, which is why employers who knowingly (and those who should have known) hire illegal aliens are required to provide them with workers’ compensation benefits. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/546 "2012-01-05T16:22:10Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This doesn’t do anything for California, nor does it have anything to do with me. I **just** showed you that the social security **YOU** collect is more solvent because Illegal Immigrants pay into what YOU sponge off of and can never collect. Stop lying. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/547 "2012-01-05T19:15:28Z")
I hardly think that the meager income she recieves in return for having been forced into paying into that program for her entire working life constitutes “sponging.” If you have a problem with people drawing Social Security payments after forty or fifty years of paying into it, I suggest you take it up with the people who first designed that program and forced it upon us all those decades ago. Social Security benefits are earned benefits, not entitlements. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/548 "2012-01-05T19:24:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I hardly think that the meager income she recieves in return for having been forced into paying into that program for her entire working life constitutes “sponging.” If you have a problem with people drawing Social Security payments after forty or fifty years of paying into it, I suggest you take it up with the people who first designed that program and forced it upon us all those decades ago. Social Security benefits are earned benefits, not entitlements. She’s on disability, not social security retirement payment. And yes, social security payments (whether for retirement or, in this case, for her disability) are in fact “entitlements”; they’re the largest entitlement paid by the government. The term “entitlement” was invented to describe the social security payments that she’s receiving in lieu of working. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/549 "2012-01-05T19:38:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I hardly think that the meager income she recieves in return for having been forced into paying into that program for her entire working life constitutes “sponging.” If you have a problem with people drawing Social Security payments after forty or fifty years of paying into it, I suggest you take it up with the people who first designed that program and forced it upon us all those decades ago. Social Security benefits are earned benefits, not entitlements. OK first, I defy you to find ANYONE who has contributed 50 years worth payments into SSDI and is now under the program as a recipient. Secondly, this is how most every program works. Food stamps. Medicaid. Unemployment benefits. The list goes on. Sure, you’ve got the urban legends of the lady on food stamps buying caviar and filet mignon. And you have a small percentage of the people actively trying to scam the system. (News flash, this will happen for any program under any organization private or public. The best you can do is reduce instances of corruption. But you can’t eliminate it and you can’t eliminate a program because it exists). But for most people under these programs, they pay into it, they use it when they need it, they get out of the program, they continue to contribute. It’s called a safety net precisely because it catches the people right when they need it most. And it works. It works and we as a society are better because of it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/550 "2012-01-05T19:38:51Z")
Also, I’m pretty sure curlcoat didn’t work for anything remotely resembling 50 years. Not _everyone_ who thinks like SA has the adorable excuse of being 137 years old and in the grasp of profound dementia. _Some_ people are just really, really dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/551 "2012-01-05T20:20:56Z")
**rogerbox** mentioned Social Security in his post. That’s what I replied to, and I can guarantee you there are plenty of people who pay into Social Security for as many as fifty years. As far as “entitlements” go, IMO entitlements should be used to refer to money and benefits people get simply for being alive - welfare, foodstamps, healthcare, unemployment, etc. People have not been forced to pay into dedicated programs to fund these benefits with the promise that when the time comes they will recieve those benefits too. In fact not everyone is even eligible for these types of benefits. One has to qualify first, and often means testing is used to determine what benefits a person qualifies for. Contrast that with Social Security, where a person is forced to pay into what is a dedicated social pension system that promises in return an income upon retirement for everyone once they reach a certain age. Thus these benefits have been earned by virtue of the earning power of the money their recipients have been forced to contribute into the program. Further, unless an earner has contributed at least ten years of earnings into the program, he or she not only fails to qualify for benefits but receives nothing in return for what they’ve paid into the system for the time they did work. So yes, the government uses the term “entitlements” to categorize Social Security benefits, but that’s because people are logically entitled to them after having been forced to contribute to the system with the promise of offsetting benefits when they retire. Unfortunately the government’s use of this term is being either misconstrued or misunderstood to imply retirees are somehow sponging off the rest of society when in fact they’ve earned their benefits with the money earned through their own labor. Thus in my opinion Social Security benefits should more rightly and accurately be called “earned benefits” rather than entitlements. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/552 "2012-01-05T20:27:18Z")
I don’t think you will find any liberals who have a problem with Social Security. It is the right who uses Social Security (which is solvent at 100% for decades) as an excuse to cut social programs and infrastructure for the non-rich. I feel you’re preaching to the choir, no one has a problem with social security or people who need a safety net, we’re critical of hypocrites like curlcoat who are on the dole and criticize others who use them as lazy, and is anti-illegal immigrant when they are propping up the very program that brings in her income. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/553 "2012-01-06T07:39:18Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Um, yeah, no, you’re not. You’re draining our economy. You’re not contributing to it. I would have thought that would be uncontroversial. > > Really, though, it seems sorta unlikely that he’s paying enough to make up for your drain on our economy. Perhaps you should look into how the economy works before you make really dumb statements like these. For example, I pay taxes and spend money, both of which are good for the economy. > [@](#): > > Not only am I living here in the US, I’m also gainfully employed, so yeah, try to show a little gratitude for those of us who are paying your way for you. You are not paying my way in any way, and when I said “here”, I meant in California. Do you not see the stupidity of making statements of the effect that illegals have in a state you don’t live in? Yes, I understand that you want to deflect attention by trying to pretend that I am the same problem that illegals are simply because I cheated myself out of all of my social security by taking it early - wait, you don’t actually believe that do you? > [@](#): > > But the illegal immigrants are making a positive contribution. It’s just you who is making a negative contribution. All those folks you’ve shown so much contempt for are, indirectly, making things _better_ for me. You’re a drain who’s making things worse. No, they are not making a positive contribution, which you would know if you had any idea. No, I am not making a negative contribution, but again you are without clue. I have shown contempt for no one. People who get social security are not drains and are not making things worse, but yeah go try that line on any retiree and see how far you get. Hard to believe you actually have a paying job. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not, which is why employers who knowingly (and those who should have known) hire illegal aliens are required to provide them with workers’ compensation benefits. You said that the illegals are _entitled_ to workers comp - fudging the books is not the same thing. > [@rogerbox](#): > > I **just** showed you that the social security **YOU** collect is more solvent because Illegal Immigrants pay into what YOU sponge off of and can never collect. Stop lying. Uh, lying? Social security being solvent or insolvent these days really has little to do with anyone who is currently paying into it - if the government hadn’t stolen money out of it for other things while I was paying into it, there would still be plenty left to pay all of the folks getting their benefits. Besides, by the time you pay all of the people over 65, and the people who have been on disability longer than me, and the kids getting their deceased parent’s benefits, you’ve completely run out of any money the illegals have paid in before you get to me. > [@Enderw24](#): > > OK first, I defy you to find ANYONE who has contributed 50 years worth payments into SSDI and is now under the program as a recipient. You do realize that payroll social security payments are not separated into different slots called “retirement”, “disability” or “send your kids to college”, right? So, if I’d managed to make it another 10 years before having to go on disability, I’d have paid into social security for 50 years, which would include SSDI. > [@](#): > > Secondly, this is how most every program works. Food stamps. Medicaid. Unemployment benefits. No, that is wrong. Social security is a retirement plan that the government forces you to participate in. If you work long enough in the right sort of jobs, and live long enough or become disabled, you get your retirement funds from them. Unemployment is sort of like that, except it isn’t automatic and it isn’t a given that you will get it simply because you are unemployed. Any sort of welfare type program is theoretically a last ditch safety net for people who fall on hard times, and that’s probably what they were back when they were created. In reality these days they are merely ways for far too many people to be irresponsible with their lives because the government will come along and save them. Qualifying for these programs has nothing to do with how long you worked or how much you paid in, if anything at all - newborn babies born to illegal aliens who just got here qualify for these programs. > [@](#): > > It works and we as a society are better because of it. Really? Is that why we have so many more poor people than we did just a couple-three decades ago? > [@DianaG](#): > > Also, I’m pretty sure curlcoat didn’t work for anything remotely resembling 50 years. I suppose that almost 40 years isn’t close enough for you since you are determined to believe that I couldn’t possibly have earned my benefits. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/554 "2012-01-06T08:08:18Z")
Wow, **curlcoat** ’s said some dumb things here on SDMB, but no one could seriously try to argue that someone who sits on their ass collecting disability contributes more to the economy than someone who’s gainfully employed but happens to an illegal immigrant. Really, there’s just no way too respond to that. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/555 "2012-01-06T08:56:19Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Wow, **curlcoat** ’s said some dumb things here on SDMB, but no one could seriously try to argue that someone who sits on their ass collecting disability contributes more to the economy than someone who’s gainfully employed but happens to an illegal immigrant. Really, there’s just no way too respond to that. You are an idiot. It is generally a good idea to not comment on things you know little to nothing about if you don’t wish people to know you are an idiot. Go forth and learn about SSDI, illegal aliens in California and the economy if you wish to not make this mistake again. Well, not on these subjects at least. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/556 "2012-01-06T11:32:22Z")
You’re saying he doesn’t know enough calculus, while displaying ignorance in arithmetic. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/557 "2012-01-06T14:31:09Z")
Believing that arguing with \*\*curlcoat \*\*accomplishes anything other than her spamming the thread with mindless, incorrect, self-pitying drivel is the stupid liberal idea of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/558 "2012-01-06T14:52:17Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Really? Is that why we have so many more poor people than we did just a couple-three decades ago? We have more poor people now because our economy is in the fucking craphouse. And we’re in this position because of a wholly mismanaged private sector gambing with hundreds of trillions of dollars of the world’s economy and losing. We are NOT in this position because of any of the social programs in place today. Though I can guarantee you that, had these programs not been in place, we as a country would have been even worse off than we are now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/559 "2012-01-06T15:03:53Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You said that the illegals are _entitled_ to workers comp - fudging the books is not the same thing. I really have no idea what you’re talking about here. Employers are obliged by the laws of most states to provide workers’ compensation benefits to illegal aliens unless they had no way of knowing they were not illegal aliens. > [@](#): > > Really? Is that why we have so many more poor people than we did just a couple-three decades ago? We don’t have more poor people today than a couple of decades ago. The percentage of Americans living below the poverty line in 2010 was 15.1 - a ten year high, for obvious reasons, but not significantly higher than 30 years ago. [See for yourself.](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104525.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086/560 "2012-01-06T15:47:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So yes, the government uses the term “entitlements” to categorize Social Security benefits, but that’s because people are logically entitled to them after having been forced to contribute to the system with the promise of offsetting benefits when they retire. Unfortunately the government’s use of this term is being either misconstrued or misunderstood to imply retirees are somehow sponging off the rest of society when in fact they’ve earned their benefits with the money earned through their own labor. Thus in my opinion Social Security benefits should more rightly and accurately be called “earned benefits” rather than entitlements. “Entitlements” are bad, and Social Security is good, even though Social Security taxes are bad, so Social Security benefits can’t be an entitlement, eh? “Keep the government’s hands off of my Medicare!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-liberal-idea-of-the-day/579086.md?page=29)